the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

In general, no matter which tcc style you've learned, there'll be five "steps" and eight "gates." The difference in styles will be in the way they're applied/used when receiving or issuing (a) force --dealing with an incoming blow or delivering one, being grabbed or grabbing. Applications are just examples, not definitions. At any rate, those are just the mechanical techniques --and there will be "da, na, and fa." However, imo/e, the key will be the skill of "hua."

Now, there are also those who'll argue that it's the method of producing power that is what makes the result internal, or even tcc. I can't argue that one way or the other. What I can say is that there's always someone more powerful. It must be neutralized first. Think fighting Brock Lesnar. Anyway, that's a side discussion.

All the principles necessary are exercised by the end of the first section of any tcc form. But, the rest of the form contains several variations. It's like a symphony, but there are still only eight notes.

There's no simple advice I can give. There are forms using fists (closed hands) that can be applied as qinna (grasps). A pull can be a simultaneous chop/slap. Going forward is going backward in reverse .

Maartin,

Your approach (i.e., training techniques) seems much more compatible with John’s approach than mine, so I will not say much here. I view the 8 jin as qualities (abstract?) rather than specific techniques (concrete?), although they ARE combined into techniques. While John gave a specific way to train peng, for example, he also obviously knows the general quality as well, as given in his examples of testing peng.

To me, the qualities of peng and lu are well demonstrated by the ball in the following video, though there is no application technique being illustrated, and no finishing moves. To me, the ball shown here is more representative of the technique than any single application technique could be. But I do agree with the testing that John mentioned.

awesome video. "4 oz" stuck to the tiger but has power haha. the tiger seems to love it. luckily it did not swipe/slash it.

I ask this every time the 13 postures come up
Why
Look to left
Glance to right

One thing to add, fwiw. It might give some insight if you studied the transitions between the named "postures." I.e., instead of thinking of ... say, the Single Whip posture as the application. Study how you got to that position from the previous one. What did you do in the middle? Better yet, how would you use the transition? Then find a partner and work it out.

It seems obvious to me that I'll have to train these differently than Xingyi. I suppose my main goal is to achieve these skills in as short a time as possible, whilst skipping the form, and then testing them. The testing part is easy. I'll have to talk to my master about it next week. I remember a Gongfu brother of his, a Taijiquan master was famous for his students having great Pengjin after training only three months, but he lives in Yunnan and is a bit of an arsehole. I'm sure that we'll figure it out.

That tiger looks like it's having a ball!

MaartenSFS wrote:having great Pengjin after training only three months, ...

- A long fist teacher will tell you, "If you train long fist long enough, you will learn how to Fajin."
- A Baji teacher will tell you, "If you train this Baji drill for 3 months, you will learn how to Fajin."

This is why I don't think long fist system understand Fajin. When a long fist student said his new Baji teacher had helped him to "open his eyes". It made his long fist teacher mad big time.

johnwang wrote:

MaartenSFS wrote:having great Pengjin after training only three months, ...

- A long fist teacher will tell you, "If you train long fist long enough, you will learn how to Fajin."
- A Baji teacher will tell you, "If you train this Baji drill for 3 months, you will learn how to Fajin."

This is why I don't think long fist system understand Fajin. When a long fist student said his new Baji teacher had helped him to "open his eyes". It made his long fist teacher mad big time.

A couple of days ago I had a pizza at the only PizzaHut in my new small 'hometown' outside there was a group of wushu kids demonstrating what I think must have been 'long fist', the kids had not yet developed powerful looking moves but showed great enthusiasm. The coach who I think must have been around 30 showed off crisp powerful looking moves, but it could be that the coach also practice other things, I actually got the feeling he could be into some sanda stuff too. A couple of years ago my wife got into an argument with a nasty woman, nasty woman comes after us grabs my wife's arm from behind, wife quickly turn around and same time doing an jerkingly ward offish move, nasty woman stumbles back, wife follows up slaps nasty woman's face, nasty woman fall to ground crying. Wife has never ever trained martial arts, I was mighty impressed.

wayne hansen wrote:I ask this every time the 13 postures come up
Why
Look to left
Glance to right

Because we do not want to side step and maintain distance and so not gain advantage. Keeping the head aligned with the spine and gazing / looking right or left means stepping and turning at 45 degrees (seven star step) ...

Tai Chi Chuan is simple and practical.... that's its "edge" in combat.

about 30 second in...

The 8 powers and 5 directions are jargon to aid tai chi coaches / masters in training their students. Of course they contain specific meanings... in my style peng is simply an upward force.. that whole chen "floating a ship" idea in everything is not an idea expressed in such jargon in our style.. of course we can be expansive just like their peng.. but I like simple instructions...

"Hey Karl!... nice but lets make it perfect add a bit of peng into the jow... Yea.. exactly!!! now... get that? sound!"

Meanwhile those not familiar have to be taken aside in the middle of training and allowed to "feel" the point and have no previous understanding to build upon...

Mystical, esoteric shit is never practical, ffs, we have a board here who cannot agree on anything despite intellectual musings for decades! lol

Fighting is practical, if the instruction lacks such directness the meaning will not carry across to the student... any wonder we have empty force?

As for the OP. there are ORTHODOX techniques used to train certain principle...

In practical terms, I tend to describe the 5 + 8 simply as directions. But, I use the model of a practitioner standing in the center of a sphere (ok, a ball). By moving some combination of forward or backward, up or down, to the left or right, all parts of the sphere can be addressed. I.e., an incoming blow can be neutralized or deflected, and an outgoing blow can be produced.

The tiger with the ball (or the principle it illustrates) is like the student in the video using Brush Knee. The bottom of his opponent's pole goes in one direction, and the top goes in another.

One way you can train the Taiji Peng is to use the preying mantis "磨盘掌 (Mo Pan Zhang)".

- Both you and your opponent have right side forward.
- You move right palm in circle and touch your leading arm on your opponent's leading arm.
- You move your left hand to his leading elbow joint. This will free your right hand.
- Your right hand then move to his shoulder, or neck, or head.

You can then test your Peng Jin and see if you can move your opponent with it.

wayne hansen wrote:I ask this every time the 13 postures come up
Why
Look to left
Glance to right

I tend to ignore the difference between the terms “look” and “gaze” when talking about right and left. I have heard a couple of explanations for the different terminology, but neither is entirely satisfactory to me. But it depends on how one views or defines these terms. Both explanations depend on one being easier than the other. Gazing is more casual and thus easier than the more active looking.

If one understands “Look Left” to be advancing diagonally, and “Gaze Right” as retreating diagonally, then one can understand that advancing against an opponent is more difficult and need one to be more focused. Retreating from the opponent would be easier and less caution is needed. But then diagonally advancing to the right or left would be “Look Left” so the direction seems superfluous; and likewise for the diagonal retreat.

The difference between right being easier than left would depend on the “standard” stance that one takes. If the default is for right handed practitioners, then the favored leg forward may then be the left (e.g. see boxers favored stances of the left leg forward for right-handers, and right leg forward for southpaws). In a left leg forward bow stance, the “open” side would be to the right while the “closed” side is to the left. Since it is easier to turn or step to the open side, the easier term of “Gaze” is used. Turning or stepping to the “closed” side would be relatively more difficult and therefore “Look” is the term used.

Gaze and look are interchangeable in English. A gaze is just a specific way of looking or type of look.

I think someone fluent in Chinese might be able to expand upon the difference between look, gaze, watch, etc. Or, if he could say that look left, look right would make a difference in the result.

Otoh, was the distinction made by the translator, and was it faithful to what the writer intended or was taught?

Steve James wrote:Gaze and look are interchangeable in English. A gaze is just a specific way of looking or type of look.

I think someone fluent in Chinese might be able to expand upon the difference between look, gaze, watch, etc. Or, if he could say that look left, look right would make a difference in the result.

Otoh, was the distinction made by the translator, and was it faithful to what the writer intended or was taught?

Look or gaze is not important. IMO, the five directions is only an expression together with the 8 principles that means that the practitioner must learn to move in direction into any of the 8 principles. This should come from weaponry and the battlefield where you have enemies everywhere and need to be able to move quickly in any direction needed. There are other terms in CMA like moving in a cross and strike through the four doors. The five directions should be a similar expression. The 8 principles or techniques resemble every possible way to move swiftly from one direction to another.