What was the true traditional CMA training?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby Trick on Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:08 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Most people don't want to sweat, John..

My master told me that when he learned Yang Shi Taijiquan he was taught some techniques like Yunshou, Yema Fenzong etc. and had to do them over and over again in line drills with weights on his wrists. He also learned applications, of course. Then, after a year, he learned part of a form from a top disciple and had to train that with weights as well. After he took the weights off this was the true "Fangsong".

Yes that sounds ancient and 'traditional', as straight to of a Shaw brothers movie. But nowadays why not just do modern well thought through weight lifting ? ...if one want to do weight training.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby Trick on Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:27 am

johnwang wrote:
- sword, you need to go into the woods and swing your sword to chop down 1,000 tree branches.

Only have to do that once. http://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XMjMzNDA ... en%2520ryu
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:39 am

Because this type of weight-lifting is specific to fighting applications! It's ancient because it's worked for hundreds, if not thousands of years!
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby Trick on Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:38 am

I can see the benefit of some 'ancient' weight training such as the Indian clubs and similar. But doing a TJQ form with weights, no, I just say no, can't see the benefit from that.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby cloudz on Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:47 am

Yea, just wait until you learn the weapons forms/ drills. Clearly it's for people who don't or can't have or do the wider system.
I mean just do something with a kettlebell or med ball. Use dumbells or barbells how they are supposed to be used. FFS

Want to be traditional get a stone lock.

Using bricks for tai chi empty hand form is a monumantal bullshit halfway house training method that ends up with the worst of both worlds. straight up load of crap. Bullshit that completely misses the point.

You just end up with shit form/ nei gung training and shit weight training LOL. Sub par examples of both those modes of training because they are combined where, and in a way, they shouldn't be. Dumb as fuck. Localised arm strength is not desirable in tai chi empty hand form or any weight training you should supplement it with. Weapons forms are designed differently for their specific use and purpose, same for empty hand.. You can train grip strength in better ways also. And some localised strenght work is all that's added here.

And on top of that it isn't even as functional as adherents might have you beleive. Most of your added muscle strength will be taken up by supporting the weight in the way you hold it. bricks are wholly impractical and wrong for the ways you are using your arms in TCC empty hand. You are training the wrong muscles in the wrong way for what you are actually doing. What you are training well for is holding and supporting weight in your hands. That's only really going to corrolate to an upwards force and the localised muscles you'll employ to do that, rather a narrow thing and an impediment and undesirable things to have throughout the entire empty hand set. At least with the weapons you will hold it support and 'power' it, the way you will use it and your free arm..

Kung Fools think they're 'hard' and clever doing it as well, that's the annoying part.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:15 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby cloudz on Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:04 am

This is pretty typical of quite a bit of old school 'functional' training. It does something, but we know there are better ways to develop strength in the modern era.
Some people just want to continue doing things like that, 'just because'. That's ok, if someone like something and gets something from it - they will of course get something regrdless of the what (that is).

It's just we have a choice now. We can see and accept there are better ways to acheive things (like strength gains for example). To update our understanding of training optimally. of course we can still choose older methods, if they work for us - and that can be for many different and varied reasons, but firstly they fall in line with our personal goals. but at the same time lets not try to pretend they are something they are not.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:41 am

It's not about producing localised muscle... It's about being forced to use your whole body to move the extra weight. It's not holding stone locks. It's strapping weights to your arms and legs and moving slowly. It develops the tendons. You can choose not to believe me, though. Your loss.

The boxers I've been sparring with are ripped. I still punch harder.
Last edited by MaartenSFS on Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:00 am

Strange wrote:My teacher told me that everyday, Shanghai Tiger Chu GuiTing's morning routine is
na, lan, zha with a daqiang to start the day.

he fight with you with empty hand, but inside he is holding a daqiang

Examples of traditional and modern exercises.

Published on Nov 7, 2010
using basics-
Lan, na, Zha, Kai, He, Beng, Pi, Heng , Pao with Heavy Long Pole:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y82fJFQzdGs

Published on Feb 16, 2017
A Look Into Anthony Joshua's Intensive Boxing Strength & Conditioning Training - Muscle Maximum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4hVnLWrViY
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby johnwang on Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:49 pm

Here is the Chang Taiji brick training. When did this traditional CMA training start? It may be difficult to trace back.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby ittokaos on Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:01 pm

Iv'e been practicing with kettlebells for a little over 2 months and i've seen an explosion in my power generation and connection. Seeing as how kettlebells would be a modern version of the stone lock, I'd say to do it. If you aren't doing something like that to improve your connection and power generation, while your form may be correct, and the muscles used in your form correctly stacked, you probably still suck and aren't going to get any better. So, swing the staff/ pole/ sword/ spear. Shake them. Move with them. Do your bodyweight exercises. And lift for form and function. SPAR. If not, you're just messing around.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby GrandUltimate on Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:52 pm

johnwang wrote:
In other words, the true "traditional" CMA training did not start from the "form" but started from much more basic.

What's your opinion on this?


It makes sense. If anything, I always thought the forms were the result of stringing together a variety of skills trained from the basic methods. Or to put it another way, the way most if not all forms came to existence is because people started from and mastered the basics.

If you dont me asking, I'm curious what you would train (according to the same concept mentioned in the first post) if you wanted to be good at throwing people? (tbh, I'm asking that mainly because I'm a SC/SJ beginner and I love the shuai jiao wen and want to know what I can do to train it to apply it frequently under pressure)
"As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another"
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby johnwang on Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:09 pm

GrandUltimate wrote:If you dont me asking, I'm curious what you would train (according to the same concept mentioned in the first post) if you wanted to be good at throwing people?

My suggestion will be:

1. Spend 6 months on 1 throw and train with your partner (for example, single leg, hip throw, foot sweep, ...).
2. 6 months later use that throw to set up other throws (for example, "single leg, foot sweep". "single leg, inner hook", "single leg, twist and spring", ...)
3. When you can use that throw (or that throw combo) to throw your resisted opponent down 7 times in a role, start your next throw and repeat 1,2,3.

By using 1,2,3, you can grow a tree. How many trees that you can grow in your life time will depend on your effort.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby MaartenSFS on Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:58 pm

I really like that idea, John. How do you let your students choose which throw to learn?

For striking I teach my students one of the 12 Core Postures per week (if they learn from me at least twice per week) in Zhanzhuang form and with footwork, after we have done at least an hour of foundation training, then use only the technique they learned that day and jabbing in sparring, then spar with everything that they have learned. Every two or three weeks I teach them one of the 5 Core Fists, which are similar, but not the same as the 5 Element Fists of Xingyiquan. After they have learned all of these I teach them more foundation exercises and then begin teaching the combination drills from the free-fighting system, which also includes kicks, throws, elbows and some Qinna, whilst still sparring every session.

That should take a year, based on how hard they work. By this time they should be getting a lot better at fighting. After that I will teach them Neigong and more specialised skills, some weapons stuff. Two years should be enough for a hard-working student to learn the whole system.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby Trick on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:03 am

johnwang wrote:
- you need to go into the woods, use one hand to hold on a tree branch, spin and drop your body, use the other upper arm to that tree branch. You will need to break 1,000 tree branches this way.


By using 1,2,3, you can grow a tree. How many trees that you can grow in your life time will depend on your effort.
:) sorry, could not hold myself
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby johnwang on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:08 am

MaartenSFS wrote:How do you let your students choose which throw to learn?

Most of my students will start from "single leg" because I'm pretty good at it myself. After I had used "single leg" to take my new students down one after another, they will have faith in it.

In general, you let your new students to wrestle as early as possible. On the mat, even if they may not know any throwing skill, their body will like to repeat a certain move that they may feel comfortable with. You can then help them to develop throw towards that direction.

For example, one of my students liked to use his left leg to hook his opponent's right leg from outside. I will then teach him how to use his

- left arm to pull his opponent's right arm back,
- right hand to push his opponent's neck/head to his left.

That will be "削(Xiao) - Sickle hooking".
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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