What was the true traditional CMA training?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby wiesiek on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:09 am

true traditional CMA should included security job, ie plenty opportunity to test the skillz in real condition .
Competition can do such job contemporary,
but not fully works as "reality check"
Last edited by wiesiek on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
joyful usefullnes of the effords
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:34 am

MaartenSFS wrote:It's not about producing localised muscle... It's about being forced to use your whole body to move the extra weight. It's not holding stone locks. It's strapping weights to your arms and legs and moving slowly. It develops the tendons. You can choose not to believe me, though. Your loss.

The boxers I've been sparring with are ripped. I still punch harder.



I was talking about Johns clips of holding bricks in your hands, specifically. If you do it differently then good for you, do you even do it? You said you didn't practice tai chi/ form, so what does this have anything to do with your punching power.
That sounds better than johns method, I'll grant you. believe you? lol.. funny boy. Show me something that proves stronger tendons contribute to your punching power. You know like sports science; how that works and how much they contribute to power specifically - you know your tendons.. And no, not the equivelent of "my grandad told me".

It will be great to know how you use your tendon power to punch with and how their power is more significant than that of your muscles. Should be fucking hilarious.

Nothing wrong with strengthening tendons, I wouldn't discount some benefits, but I don't think they have very much significance to punching power, maybe other benefits are more signifuicant. But then you overstate what you've probably been told by others just as unqualified to justify yourself and the practices, but what you think just doesn't marry up well with how we understand these things today. Stay stuck in the past for all I care it's your choice, but don't sell your delusions to others please. At least if you're going to convince anyone, do it like people do in the real world; with actual research and evidence. Not old wives tales.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:02 am

I train with weights all the time, but stopped doing the Taiji form. I do line drills holding dumbells and the same drills in Zhanzhuang slowly with weights strapped to my wrists. I've already put videos out of some of the traditional training methods.

Can you fucking read? I said that I train with weights to force myself to use the whole body (meaning many muscles) to do the work and stregthen the tendons. I just said I'm not trying to develop isolated muscles and focus on tendons, not that we shouldn't develop ANY muscular power. You are acting like a real cunt. Where is your evidence? I haven't seen fuck all from you.

John's brick method is the same. It produces real, practical power FOR fighting, not for lifting weights. All internal arts train like this or with heavy poles, etc. That is if they're training for fighting...
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:08 am

johnwang wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:How do you let your students choose which throw to learn?

Most of my students will start from "single leg" because I'm pretty good at it myself. After I had used "single leg" to take my new students down one after another, they will have faith in it.

In general, you let your new students to wrestle as early as possible. On the mat, even if they may not know any throwing skill, their body will like to repeat a certain move that they may feel comfortable with. You can then help them to develop throw towards that direction.

For example, one of my students liked to use his left leg to hook his opponent's right leg from outside. I will then teach him how to use his

- left arm to pull his opponent's right arm back,
- right hand to push his opponent's neck/head to his left.

That will be "削(Xiao) - Sickle hooking".

I like that. We may not always agree with each other, but I am confident that you are a great wrestling teacher.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:27 am

MaartenSFS wrote:I train with weights all the time, but stopped doing the Taiji form. I do line drills holding dumbells and the same drills in Zhanzhuang slowly with weights strapped to my wrists. I've already put videos out of some of the traditional training methods.

Can you fucking read? I said that I train with weights to force myself to use the whole body (meaning many muscles) to do the work and stregthen the tendons. I just said I'm not trying to develop isolated muscles and focus on tendons, not that we shouldn't develop ANY muscular power. You are acting like a real cunt. Where is your evidence? I haven't seen fuck all from you.

John's brick method is the same. It produces real, practical power FOR fighting, not for lifting weights. All internal arts train like this or with heavy poles, etc. That is if they're training for fighting...


Why do you need taiji form to strengthen your tendons with weight ?
Answer you fucking well don't.

SIMPLE

So what's the point of combining them ?
remind me.

what evidence am I supposed to come up with. I'm not the guy saying this or that will do this or that. that would be you num nuts. Come on tendons and punching power, do you have any fucking idea what you're even talking about. No you fucking don't and that's the problem here, not me being a cunt. I'm pushing you to use some critical thinking and do some real research and reading about sports science and how the body works. Then you might talk slightly less bullshit about it.

love how you're throwing your toys out the pram though, it's working ;D
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:34 am

When you say you havn't seen fuck all then you weren't paying attention you self involved numpty head.
In the thread Niall ripped you a new one I ended up posting 9 year old footage of a sparring meet up that featured myself quite a lot.

I owe you fuck all anyway, so don't start up that road .
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:51 am

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/why-trai ... -to-do-it/

some information about your tendons and training them in that link.
the main point here is that tendons do not produce force they are part of our connective tissues and they help transmit force in your body - produced by muscle. If I recall the fascia/connective tissues/tendon system can store a little energy/force, but again it does not generate it. The article mentions elasticity and recoil for example. It helps to have strong tendons, that's not what i'm arguing against, neither am I arguing against forms of weight training. You also don't get any added or special/ exclusive benefit from combining it with tai chi form or any forms training. In fact there are better ways to train with weights that will have better strengthening effects on your tendons - if that's your primary aim...

training with weights strengthens everything; muscle, tendons, connective tissues etc.. of course stronger tendons will mean a stronger you. and therefore anything to do with strength can and will be enhanced and improved upon. So sure training with weights is great no argument there, but there is absolutely no need or added benefit at all to combine it with CMA forms training of any kind. Most of all a style like tai chi..

If you intend to ask if I do any training with weight, then I can say yes I do. Body weight and external objects. I simply wouldn't mix it with tai chi form, I don't see that much point, especially where the extremities are taking the load - because it will force the muscles to work in a direction that goes against the primary direction of say a punch, by having to work to hold the weight up - that's contradictory to how you are using your bodies muscles for a punch - for an easy example. I also think it takes away from and inhibits some of the things you can better train in a form.

FWIW I think wearing a weighted vest might be interesting to try though. Not something i have gotten round to. I have used hand weights for punching drills in the past, but no more. I realized a could spend my time better by doing things differently, which is really what the point is with tai chi form and weights.
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:24 am, edited 10 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:22 am

I think that you must have some kind of disability.. I never said that tendons produce strength. Yes, they are connective tissues. Yes, we need muscles. I said that this type of weight training forces your body to use more muscles instead of isolated muscles, thus improving whole body strength. Learn to fucking read or go back to school. If you owe me fuck all then don't shit up these threads with your personal agenda. I really don't understand why you are so against traditional training and fighting methods, yet claim to do a traditional art. Well, I really don't care.. Also, no one tore me a new one by making baseless assumptions out of pure ignorance (and not being able to read, apparently). Anyways, I grow weary of your antics. I'll not respond to you again, so don't bother replying. Further your agenda elsewhere.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:34 am

lol, so angry Maarten.

You said it gave you your awesome punching power.. then you thought it would impress us to tell us how much harder you punch than the boxers you train with - because of your 'special' and different (traditional) training right?. And we're talking about training with weights, right. All this to support your idea that doing tai chi form with weights is such a great idea.

Well guess what. You were talking shit and got called on it. If these boxers did ANY kind of weight training at all they would have just as good opportunity to increase tendon strength (and muscle strength) than anything you do. Therefore they could generate punching power just like you by being stronger... maybe the boxers you train with don't weight train, but plenty do as do all manner of martial artists and fighters do these days.

You said this shit, not me, it's in black and white dumb ass. Don't blame me, how about you open your damn eyes, or think a little more about what you say in public before you say it. I paraphrase but you did fucking say this stuff dude. You see the traditional training you do with weights is not some special magical tendon strengthening thing that others don't or can't get with other types or forms of weight training.

good luck and happy training ;D
#i'msuchacunt
Last edited by cloudz on Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:52 am, edited 9 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:57 am

Want to be traditional get a stone lock.

Using bricks for tai chi empty hand form is a monumental bullshit halfway house training method that ends up with the worst of both worlds. straight up load of crap. Bullshit that completely misses the point.


Used to work with what were called wood locks, and brass rings, which for those on a budget can be made from car springs cut, welded together forming a ring make sure to grind down the rough edges left by the welding befor use. No explanation necessary for those who skip this step, they will know. :P

Used to use a weight bar for an iron staff to train with.

Funny story: some were watching me training with my staff, not realizing that it was a iron bar.
One guy asked if they could try it.

I tossed it to him, the look on his face :o as he caught and dropped it was very funny.


As you've mentioned there are specific ways to use each, each designed to develop different areas.

In my own experimentation used to use 1lb lead fishing weights,
not a good idea "lead" being the first part,
young and dumb didn't know anything about lead.

The other parts as you've mentioned I found it tended to throw off the mechanics of
effective punching in supporting the weight.
Another point not mentioned is "intent"

If one is holding onto a weight ones intent
is focused on holding the weight, not going through the fist.

of course as in all things, some may feel its a good idea, I would not based my own findings.

Traditional CMA training.

There is a saying "eating bitter"

I onced asked my teachers grand son about how does one get better in taiji.
he said "the more pain you can endure, the deeper level of skill you can achieve"

"Traditional"
can mean different things at different times in CMA development history.
There are clear points where the focused changed becoming the new tradition.

In the taiji world, the early masters were known for their usage of the art though
martial engagements common for the time. There are clear time points were one can read about the exploits of the old masters,
but can not find any corresponding exploits of the modern masters.

At a later point up to this time, IMO the focus changed allowing a training tool "push hands"
to come to the forefront as one of the main ways to test and observe taiji skill.

Oddly enough those who's training reflect the "Traditional" masters before this change
might not be considered as using taiji. While those who's training after this time might be
but have not shown this skill outside of their own specific format "push hands"

One has to understand their own training focus.

I would say the focus on "health" was
secondary to usage "fighting" which later changed to be more focused on "health"

not necessarily good for usage "fighting"
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:09 am

I would say the focus on "health" was
secondary to usage "fighting" which later changed to be more focused on "health"

not necessarily good for usage "fighting"


Think train for "fighting" may get the "health" part. Train for "health" will never get the "fighting" part. But need "health" to train for "fighting".
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:51 am

suckinlhbf wrote:
Think train for "fighting" may get the "health" part. Train for "health" will never get the "fighting" part. But need "health" to train for "fighting".


agree ;)

Maybe I look at it a little differently based on my own background. Not all practices would I say are really healthy,
some of which I wonder about the effects now as I age. :-\

we used to use an iron bar, the idea was to pop it into the air using ones forearms, and catch it on the wrist allowing it to roll down the forearms.
It was believed that doing this would help to toughen the bone, and deaden the nerves to feeling pain.

One of many other practices that were designed to allow the body to feel and adapt to getting hit, feeling and managing the pain.

The eventual goal of not being afraid of getting hit, and not feeling the pain if one was hit.
Of course the best option is to be able hit the other and not get hit.... :P
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:13 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:39 am

Not all practices would I say are really healthy

So we should know what the training is for, being effective and minimize damage.

toughen the bone, and deaden the nerves to feeling pain

It would be to break the small bond tissues, allow them to heal and grow stronger, so get a denser bond for the forearms. Deaden the nerves - better avoid it.

allow the body to feel and adapt to getting hit

One training from southern mantis is to round the back to pack the ribs together so can get a harder hit, and build up from there. Have to know how far to go to reduce damage.

being afraid of getting hit, and not feeling the pain if one was hit

Would think it is the psychological state and mind that get into play on not afraid to get hit. In a fight, both get hurt and who hurts worse lost. I am suck so get different degree of hurt from every fight. Therefore, avoid "fight" and blah with "health". Trying to get the best option but never been able to.
Last edited by suckinlhbf on Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby windwalker on Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:02 am

One training from southern mantis is to round the back to pack the ribs together so can get a harder hit, and build up from there. Have to know how far to go to reduce damage.


Interesting you should mention S-mantis one of my kung fu brothers teaches it in China
Roger Haygood. http://www.bambootemple.com/

yep one should know what the training is for. ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:37 pm

The boxers do normal weight training. I do line drills holding dumbells (not a Taiji form - learn to fucking read), Zhanzhuang with sandbags strapped to my wrists, tree, rope and belt shaking, work with bricks, etc. My power comes from being able to use my whole body to punch, rather than isolated muscles, stronger tendons, training specifically for fighting, being able to shake the waist, being able to sink my weight, etc. After I train with weights, I also train without to continue using more muscles than one normally would. If I did all of my daily tasks with weights that would be great too. It's not only about improving strength, but about using all you have.

Paraphrasing assumes that you understand what you are summarising. You don't understand at all. I hope that this clears things up for everyone else..
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