What was the true traditional CMA training?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby I am... on Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:52 pm

"What about the biological role of collagenous tendons? They usually run between the ends of a muscle and its attachments to bones, so the force (and shortening) of the muscle is transmitted to the bones. Work is stored--in a running person or hopping kangaroo about 40-50 percent of the work done on a leg in landing is recovered as it pushes off again (Alexander 1983). The leg tendons do most of that storage despite their low mass relative to bones, muscles, or the animal as a whole." (Vogel 2003: 345)
Book
Comparative Biomechanics: Life's Physical World, Second EditionPrinceton University PressJune 17, 2013
Steven Vogel
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby marvin8 on Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:21 pm

-
MaartenSFS wrote:The boxers do normal weight training. I do line drills holding dumbells (not a Taiji form - learn to fucking read), Zhanzhuang with sandbags strapped to my wrists, tree, rope and belt shaking, work with bricks, etc. My power comes from being able to use my whole body to punch, rather than isolated muscles, stronger tendons, training specifically for fighting, being able to shake the waist, being able to sink my weight, etc. After I train with weights, I also train without to continue using more muscles than one normally would. If I did all of my daily tasks with weights that would be great too. It's not only about improving strength, but about using all you have.

Paraphrasing assumes that you understand what you are summarising. You don't understand at all. I hope that this clears things up for everyone else..

What do you mean by, "The boxers do normal weight training. I do . . . "

I have already posted a boxer's strength workout in this thread that includes some of the exercises you mention (e.g., line drills, rope shaking, whole body, etc. Here it is again.
marvin8 wrote:Published on Feb 16, 2017
A Look Into Anthony Joshua's Intensive Boxing Strength & Conditioning Training - Muscle Maximum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4hVnLWrViY

I agree that real CMA should be tested in sparring. However, I don't think you have shown sparring against any notable fighters at the same height and weight as you. In your sparring, I mainly saw windmilling attacks from various angles and over powering opponents. That does not speak of the effectiveness of your CMA techniques, by themselves.

Why not spar Anthony Joshua (in the video), a decent Sanda, or MMA fighter in competition? That way, we can see the effectiveness of your CMA techniques. Otherwise, you are just "talking" as you yourself are proclaiming others are doing.

MMA has or had many fighters with various traditional backgrounds, including CMA and IMA. MMA is already using CMA techniques along with fighting skills. You will discover that fighting skill/ability includes more than just CMA techniques and how you look.
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby Taste of Death on Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:45 pm

cloudz wrote:Show me something that proves stronger tendons contribute to your punching power. You know like sports science; how that works and how much they contribute to power specifically - you know your tendons.. And no, not the equivelent of "my grandad told me".

It will be great to know how you use your tendon power to punch with and how their power is more significant than that of your muscles. Should be fucking hilarious.

Nothing wrong with strengthening tendons, I wouldn't discount some benefits, but I don't think they have very much significance to punching power, maybe other benefits are more signifuicant. But then you overstate what you've probably been told by others just as unqualified to justify yourself and the practices, but what you think just doesn't marry up well with how we understand these things today. Stay stuck in the past for all I care it's your choice, but don't sell your delusions to others please. At least if you're going to convince anyone, do it like people do in the real world; with actual research and evidence. Not old wives tales.


Systema's Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev as well as Dan Harden (bodywork on rsf) teach their students to develop tendon strength for martial arts. You can tell them they are deluded yourself. Vlad and Dan love being called cunts to their faces. You can bring Niall with you. Please film it when you decide it's time to teach them a lesson. ;D
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby MaartenSFS on Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:11 pm

marvin8 wrote:-
MaartenSFS wrote:The boxers do normal weight training. I do line drills holding dumbells (not a Taiji form - learn to fucking read), Zhanzhuang with sandbags strapped to my wrists, tree, rope and belt shaking, work with bricks, etc. My power comes from being able to use my whole body to punch, rather than isolated muscles, stronger tendons, training specifically for fighting, being able to shake the waist, being able to sink my weight, etc. After I train with weights, I also train without to continue using more muscles than one normally would. If I did all of my daily tasks with weights that would be great too. It's not only about improving strength, but about using all you have.

Paraphrasing assumes that you understand what you are summarising. You don't understand at all. I hope that this clears things up for everyone else..

What do you mean by, "The boxers do normal weight training. I do . . . "

I have already posted a boxer's strength workout in this thread that includes some of the exercises you mention (e.g., line drills, rope shaking, whole body, etc. Here it is again.
marvin8 wrote:Published on Feb 16, 2017
A Look Into Anthony Joshua's Intensive Boxing Strength & Conditioning Training - Muscle Maximum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4hVnLWrViY

I agree that real CMA should be tested in sparring. However, I don't think you have shown sparring against any notable fighters at the same height and weight as you. In your sparring, I mainly saw windmilling attacks from various angles and over powering opponents. That does not speak of the effectiveness of your CMA techniques, by themselves.

Why not spar Anthony Joshua (in the video), a decent Sanda, or MMA fighter in competition? That way, we can see the effectiveness of your CMA techniques. Otherwise, you are just "talking" as you yourself are proclaiming others are doing.

MMA has or had many fighters with various traditional backgrounds, including CMA and IMA. MMA is already using CMA techniques along with fighting skills. You will discover that fighting skill/ability includes more than just CMA techniques and how you look.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby cloudz on Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:03 am

Taste of Death wrote:
cloudz wrote:Show me something that proves stronger tendons contribute to your punching power. You know like sports science; how that works and how much they contribute to power specifically - you know your tendons.. And no, not the equivelent of "my grandad told me".

It will be great to know how you use your tendon power to punch with and how their power is more significant than that of your muscles. Should be fucking hilarious.

Nothing wrong with strengthening tendons, I wouldn't discount some benefits, but I don't think they have very much significance to punching power, maybe other benefits are more signifuicant. But then you overstate what you've probably been told by others just as unqualified to justify yourself and the practices, but what you think just doesn't marry up well with how we understand these things today. Stay stuck in the past for all I care it's your choice, but don't sell your delusions to others please. At least if you're going to convince anyone, do it like people do in the real world; with actual research and evidence. Not old wives tales.


Systema's Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir Vasiliev as well as Dan Harden (bodywork on rsf) teach their students to develop tendon strength for martial arts. You can tell them they are deluded yourself. Vlad and Dan love being called cunts to their faces. You can bring Niall with you. Please film it when you decide it's time to teach them a lesson. ;D



Yea smart ass Dan doesn't teach exercise with weights. I can't comment on the other two as i have never met them and I don't even care what they teach or what they think of anything I have to say about anything. Seriously? I know what Dan teaches and it has nothing to do with weights. So it's a different discussion.
Did I say tendons were not trained or shouldn't be, where exactly fuck head?. I don't know wtf has got you involved or even what you want to say.

I trained with Dan years before you and I like him and hopefully he liked me. Don't bring people into it it has nothing to do with.
And if I recall I was called a cunt, I didn't call anyone that.

Now seriously carry on if you want me on your case, because you know, I don't give a fuck. I don't know you, you don't know me.
It's fucking out of line to bring names into it that have nothing to do with anything going on or being discussed in this thread.
Who the fuck said anything about teaching anyone a lesson other than you?
Leave your stupid fantasies where they belong eh.

oh and just because I don't think they contribute a lot to punching power, that is not to say anything about its usefullness for grappling.

Seriously STFU because you are talking utter bollocks. Did you read the article, did you read the other post.
The article and the post if I recall both stated that training tendons/ muscles makes you stronger and contributes to your strength.

But punching is punching, and I don't think tendon strength is as big a factor to power generation than muscle and technique as it is to other uses (involving connection...), it can enhance a bit perhaps with storing involved, but there are also ways to move and use/ organize your body to utilize it. defensive wrestling grappling is probably where connective tissue strength really comes forward.

If you don't or can't move the right way (bows), then no amount of any training weights or without is going to manifest that store and release in your punching.
Seeing as that's not what was being discussed I have no reason to think that's what Maarten is training with this.
On top of that any weight training anyone does is not an either or between muscle and tendon, both are involved and worked/ trained/ strengthened.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:00 am, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby cloudz on Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:40 am

MaartenSFS wrote:The boxers do normal weight training. I do line drills holding dumbells (not a Taiji form - learn to fucking read), Zhanzhuang with sandbags strapped to my wrists, tree, rope and belt shaking, work with bricks, etc. My power comes from being able to use my whole body to punch, rather than isolated muscles, stronger tendons, training specifically for fighting, being able to shake the waist, being able to sink my weight, etc. After I train with weights, I also train without to continue using more muscles than one normally would. If I did all of my daily tasks with weights that would be great too. It's not only about improving strength, but about using all you have.

Paraphrasing assumes that you understand what you are summarising. You don't understand at all. I hope that this clears things up for everyone else..



We weren't discussing your training in this thread seeing as you have only just mentioned it, how could we. This is getting absurd.
I understand just fine.

Weight training strengthens tendons, yours or theirs (the boxers) it's not like only your training or only there's works on tendons. So what's the point to anything you're saying in comparison.

Maybe you're just bigger and stronger maybe it's genetics, maybe you have bigger stronger muscle. But it's not that your tendons are getting special weight training.
Did you read the article?

There may well be some exercises that work better than others, things like that. But there's good info in the article if you care to look and let it inform your training.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby cloudz on Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:46 am

here you go. have at it if you want.

something I consider traditional. Something I have done and do.
tai chi and weight training combined - in what I consider a good way. and certainly better than the form ideas.. just add this to form and you have the best of both world so to speak rather than a halfway house..

My disagreement was mainly about that. I also mentioned that modern weightlifting regimes are better than a lot of these old school functional methods - that's if you want the most optimal S&C training with weights. I think that's just true, and if people don't agree for whatever reasons I really couldn't give a shit.

Now, that's not to say I do that myself. I don't. But i'm not going to sit here and pretend the weight training I do is this or that. It's good enough for me, but it wouldn't be for others goals. If you want the best, look at what the best and best qualified do and coach.

Oh yeah.. here's the clip!

Last edited by cloudz on Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby GrandUltimate on Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:09 pm

johnwang wrote:
GrandUltimate wrote:If you dont me asking, I'm curious what you would train (according to the same concept mentioned in the first post) if you wanted to be good at throwing people?

My suggestion will be:

1. Spend 6 months on 1 throw and train with your partner (for example, single leg, hip throw, foot sweep, ...).
2. 6 months later use that throw to set up other throws (for example, "single leg, foot sweep". "single leg, inner hook", "single leg, twist and spring", ...)
3. When you can use that throw (or that throw combo) to throw your resisted opponent down 7 times in a role, start your next throw and repeat 1,2,3.

By using 1,2,3, you can grow a tree. How many trees that you can grow in your life time will depend on your effort.


Thanks! I'll surely be putting this advice to use
"As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another"
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:35 am

The Taiji ball stuff is good. I do a lot of similar exercises with weights, that serve a similar purpose.

I still don't agree with you about the form. I'm not saying to do it with weights every time. It's important to do it with and without the weights, the goal being to use the whole body as if you still had the weights strapped on (because holding weights changes the techniques too much) even after you don't. That is true Song. That's fine if you don't believe me, though, as there are many different training methods. I have been extremely impressed with the results if this type of training. I don't do it with the form because I have abandoned forms for now. If I had one, though, I would.

As is, I train line drills holding 1kg dumbbells and without and do the same techniques whilst stationary (In Zhanzhuang), slowly, with 1kg sand bags (used to do it with 2kg) strapped to my wrists. The latter method is similar to the form. Oh God it's tiring, but it delivers results! Interestingly, even after years of training like this I still haven't developed obvious muscles, yet my power (not just punching power, but many different types of power) has increased dramatically..
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby MaartenSFS on Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:59 am

Finally watched the boxing strength and conditioning video. Good stuff. Most of it was for developing entirely different skills, though. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I wouldn't say that all of this stuff was modern training, either. It's just a different tradition.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby cloudz on Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:25 am

I get it.. all training can yield results of some kind or another. And often it's very difficult to get away from confirmation bias. If you train hard, which you obviously do, it's hard not to improve or be quite good.. yea, did i say that? But you also need to watch out for platues with weight training. That might be fine, after all we do martial arts not strength competitions..

The hand weights will make you stronger, maybe not in the perfect biio mechanical way to go with every movement, but that's not necessarily the end of the world. None of it is. You'll be getting stronger.

I can only draw on my own experience with hand held weights that my teacher had me doing punching drills with. You might recall Niall mentioned them with the 'rolling thunder' punching drill.

So I know teachers etc that use it, I have even seen one of the greatest boxers of all time using them or something like it... it might have even been dumbells actually. Just Floyd Mayweather you know. But still, I don't see the point now. Horses for courses, if you train and train hard you can make up for different things. maybe you have more or less fast twitch fibres than the next guy, maybe he does 1 hour you do 2. maybe you just more talented (like Floydd). And so on.

Frankly speaking, your tai chi form training should move towards internal (neigong) IMHO for primary function (I like it also as expressions of style and movements, contents etc) and much of the training to begin with will be body mechanics which will start to bridge towards bio mechanics, leading with the intent and so on. Strapping weights on is just leading you to engaging muscular tension that isn't needed (for this). There can be a number of practice methods for tai chi form before you even consider weights.

There are good times and places for strength training. But i see them as different modalities working different systems in the body.. Tai chi form probably isn't the ideal place. And I'm perfectly sure if you did tai chi weapons forms the need to do something like this would be next to non existent. You have forms you could do with a heavy pole for example, a sword etc. In these you would emply the additional muscular tension in a necessary way for the forms function and in the accordance with the forms themselves.

But look, like I said earlier. Pretty much any training can give you something. The question is what do you want from your training. Our difference is simple; I don't need or want tai chi form with any kind of hand weights, but firstly I definitely don't need it. For your own reasons, you want to do it. I have more than enough strength training exercises than I can shake a stick at, be it body weight or something with an external weight. Take yiqyuan shi li for example, does that need weight added to it? The point of these exercises is simply different to (external) strength training. So best kept seperate; in my book.

I just think if you had a truly rich and textured/ layered tai chi (empty hand) form practice layering on an additional external strength component would be the last thing on your mind. Especially in light of the systems weapons forms you could choose. Strength is strength, if you're doing strength training with weights already (which you clearly are) how much more do you really need to train it, particularly what would be relatively light weight. Would the gains here really be worthwhile I would wonder.

Do it, you don't need anyones permission. We all do various different things throughout our training life. Many things I have done I do not continue to do. I'm sure you will or have found the same. You must try different things and continue that experimental, trial and error mindset and you also should ditch any notions of old vs. new, traditional vs. sport and so on. It should not matter !
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:53 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby johnwang on Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:51 pm

MaartenSFS wrote:That is true Song. ...

I had used this method to help to train the UT woman swimming team back in 1973.

1. Stay on Chinese chair (horse stance with back against wall) as long as you can, when you can't hold on any longer, you straight your legs, bend your body forward, your hands can touch the ground much easier.

2. (This is the reverse of 1) Bend forward with knees straight, drop hands on the ground. When you no longer be able to stretch, you drop back to Chinese chair. Now you can stay in Chinese chair much longer than before.

3. Lay down on the ground. Your opponent holds on your legs. You try to separate your legs and move one leg forward and one leg backward. When you can't hold on it any longer, your opponent releases his hold. Now you can do one leg forward and one leg backward floor split much easier than before.

I'm sure someone should have published a paper on this.
Last edited by johnwang on Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby marvin8 on Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:45 pm

marvin8 wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:The boxers do normal weight training. I do line drills holding dumbells (not a Taiji form - learn to fucking read), Zhanzhuang with sandbags strapped to my wrists, tree, rope and belt shaking, work with bricks, etc. My power comes from being able to use my whole body to punch, rather than isolated muscles, stronger tendons, training specifically for fighting, being able to shake the waist, being able to sink my weight, etc. After I train with weights, I also train without to continue using more muscles than one normally would. If I did all of my daily tasks with weights that would be great too. It's not only about improving strength, but about using all you have.

Paraphrasing assumes that you understand what you are summarising. You don't understand at all. I hope that this clears things up for everyone else..

What do you mean by, "The boxers do normal weight training. I do . . . "

I have already posted a boxer's strength workout in this thread that includes some of the exercises you mention (e.g., line drills, rope shaking, whole body, etc. Here it is again.

MaartenSFS wrote:Finally watched the boxing strength and conditioning video. Good stuff. Most of it was for developing entirely different skills, though. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I wouldn't say that all of this stuff was modern training, either. It's just a different tradition.

So you thought, "boxers do normal weight training." From the start, it seems you have a lack of knowledge of what training boxers really do. So, you may not understand modern, high level training and the skills that are developed.

Some boxers do rope shaking, hand weights, whole body exercises, cables, etc. Since you know "most of it was for developing entirely different skills," can you explain the difference between the skills you're developing? This is only part of their overall training.

If you have other skills that are worlds apart from other fighters (Sanda, MMA, boxers, etc.) that you use in sparring/competition, it would be interesting to hear about them.
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby windwalker on Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:11 pm

This might be considered true traditional training associated with a true traditional style

Hop gar.

quote]nteresting reading. Master Ming was known as Master Harry Ng here.

From what I could remember, it was common knowledge that Master Ng had a small school on Powell street where he trained the Chinese Mafia soldiers late at nite. The style that he taught was Hop Gar which has always been associated with the Chinese mafia. In the past, if you mention that you learned Hop Gar, you were a thought as a ganster and regarded as a dangerous person who should not to be associated with.

It was very common in the old days for the Chinese Mafia to hire kung fu masters such as Master Ng, put up a front kung fu school, and have them train their youth gang members known as soldiers.

Master Ng's death was an effort by the Chinese mafia to stop an uprising of their soldiers and gave the excuse that Master Ng could not control his students, i.e., the trained gang soldiers. Originally the soldiers were given an assignment but were unable to complete it but still demanded payment of $2,000 from the mafia for an unsuccessful job performed. If the Chinese mafia did not pay, the soldiers threaten to expose their gambling houses and prostitution houses.

As a result of the threat, the mafia hired a 15 year old kid and was assigned to shoot Master Ng who took four slugs (22-cal.), one in each knee and two in the chest. This sent a loud message to the soldiers-back off or your going to be next.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/sho ... nd-Kung-Fu

Many of the styles used today, were used back in the day,
just as intended only not in the ring.

You might remember my saying that a lot of Mr. Long's students used his White Crane in the streets -- just as there were guys in our later school where were bouncers. But some of Mr. Long's students were street gang members, and a few of them had developed really interesting and unique ways of using White Crane.

As usual, I was pushed into sparring with pretty much anyone who walked through Mr. Long's door, and one of the most interesting of his "older" students was a gang member who had a very tricky way of using the Crane style.

I was warned about this in advance by Ron, so I had a little knowledge to start off with, but when we squared off in the middle of the room, he had a very modified version of the crane horse... so modified that you would never know he was taking up any kind of ready position.

He had a way of moving back and forth that was hard to follow, and completely disguised what he was up to. And he was kind of magical in the way he could draw your attention over "here" then slip quickly into a crane postion and attack you over "there" that was really hard to track. Mr. Long use to say "Don't let the wind blow you."

So, this guy's unique way of maneuvering your attention without telegraphing anything of value, was using his "wind" to move your attention to his benefit. It was quite an experience to spar with him. But this was another example of the ways in which White Crane could be molded to fit a particular need, to accommodate a particular set of assumptions about where you were fighting and why.

It might be fine to sink down into a fancy on-guard position in some cases. In other cases, you might not want to let a potential opponent know anything bout what you are up to decide to unload on him. Those were also the kinds of things we were experimenting with.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26046&p=443772&hilit=mike+staples&sid=c56e735f0d0626b53b9a7280e793f919#p443772

But this was another example of the ways in which White Crane could be molded to fit a particular need, to accommodate a particular set of assumptions about where you were fighting and why.


The need determined by the clarity of ones self in testing
assumptions and reasons for their practice.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What was the true traditional CMA training?

Postby windwalker on Sat Aug 19, 2017 3:37 pm

Thought some might be interested in old history.

Mar Sik was born in America on March 15th, 1876 in the Stockton Delta area. When Mar Sik was a child his parent’s sent him to Toy Shan County in Canton China. He was about 7 years old when he learned Kung fu from his Uncle, Mar Lock, who had an alterations business. Before Mar Lock owned the Alterations business, he was a Shaolin monk (this was during the Ching Dynasty).

As a monk he was challenged to a fight in which he fought and killed the challenger and was wanted by the government. He hid away from the police and moved back to his hometown in Canton to assimilate into society. He let his hair grow out and no longer dressed like a monk.

Everything Mar Sik learned was from his Uncle. If you look at Mar Sik’s movements you can still taste the flavor of history from the old style Shaolin Kung fu.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn6UmLgCGGU

On April 18th, 1906 Mar Sik was in San Francisco and witnessed the tragic earthquake. Shortly after the Earthquake, Mar Sik went to Stockton and worked as a kung fu Sifu for the Chinese Tong. One time there were two guys fighting and Mar Sik tried to break up the fight. One of them turned on him. Mar Sik hit the guy on top of the head with a back fist and crushed the guy’s skull and he died.

Mar Sik regretted it and swore that he would never fight again. He was wanted by the police, so he escaped from Stockton and went to Reno Nevada and hid in a Chinese labor camp for seven years.

After returning to San Francisco he was invited to be a Kung fu Sifu for the Chinese Tong. One time he was visiting his friend’s gambling house and the place was raided by the police. They arrested him and thought him to be the owner.

Mar Sik stood up for his friend and went to jail for ten years. Because of his loyalty he was the most highly respected man in the Tong and Chinese community.


Mar Sik passed away in 1973 at age 96. He did not die of illness. All of his friends were gone; he was very depressed and he starved himself to death.

When Lucky Chan took Mar Sik to the hospital the doctor put in an I.V. and Mar Sik kept pulling them out so he could die peacefully.

http://tibetanhopgar.com/mar-sik/
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