挤 Ji as "squeeze"

[everything]

It doesn't seem like anyone here is looking for hidden meanings. That said, there are various nuances of meaning in the everyday word and that makes it interesting at least at a language appreciation level, more so to the extent that the MA meaning may have various uses/meanings (again this isn't to imply there is anything that there is not, etc., etc.). I don't believe English has a direct translation and that itself may be a reason for some confusion. Nevermind that no one agrees about anything in taijiquan.

As I asked above (probably missed), how much if any do you squeeze your palms together in that classic demo app (as shown in the Pushing Hands movie clip)?

[charles]

As I asked above (probably missed), how much if any do you squeeze your palms together in that classic demo app (as shown in the Pushing Hands movie clip)?

Rarely.

The only practical application that comes to my mind immediately is to use one arm to redirect an incoming strike, to get on top of it, pushing it downward/into the opponent, then come in with the other palm as a strike, long or short force.

[Steve James]

I wrestled with the jargon for a long time. I eventually concluded that it really doesn't matter what labels or names one applies to physical skills and abilities. What matters is that one has those physical skills and abilities and then one can call them whatever one likes.

Agreed. It's a question of semantics, in translation at that. However, imo, reducing every pengjin solves absolutely no practical martial objectives. For one thing, it's just a word; and words need humans to have meaning and reality. If someone argues that it's all qi, it could be true; but it is not an effective teaching tool. Naming the shi must be separate from their names as jin.

Of course, arguing that all jins are one offers a convenient explanation for why only 13 shi were chosen to be named in Yang tcc when there are obviously more than 13 jin (chanssu being the most obvious). Hence, the arguments about whether chanssu or peng were the central jin, and why Yang style did not include them. I.e., "why doesn't X have Y?"

Imo, there seems to be an assumption that the theory preceded the practice. For example, there are many connotations for the word/action "split." Sure, we can say that it is a manifestation of peng, or qi. I don't know what the character for split is in Chinese, but the English expression carries clear denotations that means it is not central equilibrium.

Imo, if I wanted to teach someone how to break an arm, I would use a specific, physical example. I could call the example "chenga" or I could call it peng. My point is that the term was derived from the action, not arbitrarily. Students were taught specific practices/movements, and they were given names. They argued, afik, that combining those movements could produce a myriad number of variations.

One could argue that the 13 shi were used to make the art fall in line with Chinese philosophical theories. Thing is, I kinda agree with the taichi idea of the way the universe works. I also agree that there's no such thing as tcc. It doesn't exist apart from human beings doing it. Period. You'll no more find tcc than you'll find the number two walking around --ok, except on Sesame Street.

Afa "jin," I think it's useless to argue that every jin is one and then give it a name. Just call it "jin," not chanssu, peng, lu, etc. Then, better yet, translate it to English. Decide whether it means energy, force, power or whatever. Seems to me that would be a whole lot clearer and simpler. When it comes to application, it might or might not help.

[everything]

oops sorry I didn't mean how frequently do you practice the demo app.

I meant if you show someone the demo app, do you squeeze your hands together or notice the incidental squeezing and if so, how much (quantity of squeezing/noticing).

For example (just to illustrate what's happening), suppose you take this posture and press on a yoga/physioball against a wall. What happens is:
- your hands are squeezed together as one hand pushes the other
- you are pressing (English everyday word meaning) the ball
- you are compressing/squeezing/crowding the ball
- in this case the ball is squeezed against the wall as well.

These are just casual observations, not a commentary about hidden meaning, etc., etc. (in case anyone thinks that). If you know the everyday word ji, it describes all of the above points. Kind of a pun in a way, but really it's just a good word. If you didn't know the word, the label doesn't really, really matter, but there is my bad attempt to describe some of it. Not looking for hidden meaning, but if I took that ball example and you could FORGET everything you know about tai chi, you could easily see that whatever this "force X" or "energy X" might be called, you use this "force X" in all MA, maybe more so in ground work.

Once all this goes through your head, you just understand the abstraction of "force X" (you can't un-understand it). Again, this isn't intellectualization, it just is. See what I mean?

[willie]

We pushed the point, thinking he was keeping "the real deal" to himself. He eventually got somewhat impatient with my/other students persistence in the matter and finally said, "It's all peng jin". You can break that down in to sub-classifications of peng jin, such as lu, ji, an, and further, still, into zhou an (an with elbow), zhou lu (lu with elbow), an with knee, koa with the knee, kao with the hand ... Where do you stop classifying and sub-classifying?

Interesting, The real deal and all.
Playing football. After a while it just becomes natural to catch the ball when someone throws it.
Therefor "small catch and hit" becomes just as natural, as does the entire form and every single move.
Peng jin appears as a beginners level at that point. "It can be expressed without the engine..."

Does the cable of a suspension bridge hold peng jin? But how heavy that cable would feel...

[charles]

I meant if you show someone the demo app, do you squeeze your hands together or notice the incidental squeezing and if so, how much (quantity of squeezing/noticing).

In that application, the amount of force used is proportional to the desired result. Change the application, change the amount of and direction of the force.

Again, this isn't intellectualization, it just is. See what I mean?

If on strips off the intellectualization, it's just a push, possibly with a squeezing/crowding force prior to the push itself. Depending upon the application, the squeezing/crowding is the important part.

[charles]

Afa "jin," I think it's useless to argue that every jin is one and then give it a name. Just call it "jin," not chanssu, peng, lu, etc. Then, better yet, translate it to English. Decide whether it means energy, force, power or whatever. Seems to me that would be a whole lot clearer and simpler. When it comes to application, it might or might not help.

Similarly, all of the things we eat are "food". We chose to categorize foods in a variety of ways and give each category its own name, even though they are all "food": fruit, vegetables, meat, fish... We subcategorize those, each with its own unique name, as apples, oranges, figs, zucchini, beans, beef, pork... We subcategorize by a different criteria, each with its own unique name, as protein, fat, carbohydrate. Other categorizations include "hot" and "cold", such as in traditional Chinese culture. And so on. Why do we do that? Same with Taijiquan.

[charles]

Does the cable of a suspension bridge hold peng jin?

Sure, if we define peng jin as what a cable does when suspending a bridge. Some define it as tensegrity. Others define it as the kind of buoyancy that supports a boat. Some define it as, "Qi flowing everywhere". Another defines is as, "Not giving up what has been gained". And so on. Words only go so far in describing an experience. They go even less far if the experience that is being described by the words differs from one group to the next.

[everything]

If on strips off the intellectualization, it's just a push, possibly with a squeezing/crowding force prior to the push itself. Depending upon the application, the squeezing/crowding is the important part.

Hence squeezing/crowding is perhaps a better term. Which automatically brings to mind other things (which are in many MA, but may or may not be in tai chi).

"Press" probably isn't a great translation, but it's not about word games or hidden meanings. It's about fairly clear meanings and perhaps unclear words. At least "ji" is easier to describe than "peng".

Words only go so far in describing an experience. They go even less far if the experience that is being described by the words differs from one group to the next.

Hence no one seems to agree about tai chi, even though it's probably relatively easy to agree on most of the 8 "energies". What everyone said about "ji" above, for example, is really not in disagreement at all.

[windwalker]

Interesting posts.

I express the "ji" as squeezing the others body between itself and the ground
directing its rebound adding to this force to accomplish what ever I want to do.

Some have mentioned triangulation.

ones body forms a base, the arm forms another angle with the last angle virtual angle "made by the "yin/yang "mind" or intent being formed at
the point of contact using ones intent to judge where the apex will be.

The the hand that touches the wrist rotates directing the rebound force to where ever I want to direct it.
Like taking a water melon seed and squeezing between 2 fingers the seed suddenly is expelled out.

The touch is very brief the action happens quickly no sense of loading or force build up on the others frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJZ9iy2ZG0o&t=958s

at 7:44 he illustrates the triangle power using "ji"

[everything]

"Yes and".

Probably if we just linked each person's post above with the phrase "yes and", we'd have a pretty good description. That probably works with what people said about "peng" as well.

Instead we get an argument that "I was told this" and "I was told that". Well "this" and "that" are probably collectively right.

[everything]

The the hand that touches the wrist rotates directing the rebound force to where ever I want to direct it.
Like taking a water melon seed and squeezing between 2 fingers the seed suddenly is expelled out.

The touch is very brief the action happens quickly no sense of loading or force build up on the others frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJZ9iy2ZG0o&t=958s

at 7:44 he illustrates the triangle power using "ji"

Thanks a lot for this video and clarification.

Also, I think I'm missing something on the rotation you mentioned. For example, can you explain if that demo shows any of that hand rotation at that moment? Maybe it's not in that (very brief) demo but I'm trying to catch on to your point. Btw, really like that demo in any case.

Edit: P.S. It's really interesting he then goes to the board to draw a triangle. Not sure I'm following him but hmm.

[windwalker]

"Yes and".

Probably if we just linked each person's post above with the phrase "yes and", we'd have a pretty good description. That probably works with what people said about "peng" as well.

Instead we get an argument that "I was told this" and "I was told that". Well "this" and "that" are probably collectively right.

does it matter outside of ones understanding or system that they follow.
I view it as "doing" not being told anything. What would one argue about something that they know "do"

pung is pung, ji is ji, lu is lu ect.

I find the variations interesting, some I can agree with others not so much.
I would think its not what one says but what can one do with it or how one uses it.

As some have mentioned there is the movement, and the type of energy used. Maybe for some
this might be part of the confusion for those looking for a definitive answer.

[everything]

definitely it's about what we can do or not do.

but on the board we only have words (well plus video). some words are a little confusing. I never really thought "press" was so interesting but thinking almost absent-mindedly about the word and what everyone wrote here has got me more interested in it. I also agree more with some and less with others, haha.

[windwalker]

Also, I think I'm missing something on the rotation you mentioned. For example, can you explain if that demo shows any of that hand rotation at that moment? Maybe it's not in that (very brief) demo but I'm trying to catch on to your point. Btw, really like that demo in any case.

at 6:11 he uses his finger to raise the other person up.
in order to do this there most be rotation. One line is virtual made by the mind "ying/yang"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJZ9iy2ZG0o&t=958s

He talks about many triangles that can be made if the idea of it is understood. Some talk of the square with in the circle.
a triangle can be formed by cutting the square in half from corner to corner.