What if we disregard the 4oz ideal?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: What if we disregard the 4oz ideal?

Postby Trick on Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:39 am

Bao wrote:The 4 oz ideal is perfect for this and similar situations. When a big guy puts all of his weight against her in a standing position, she just follow his movement, fill in and put him to the ground. It's completely effortless, the man will not even know what happened, but think he stumbled and fell. When he falls down, she quickly kick his nuts or whatever she think suits the situation.

She can also let him fall on his knee. There's no reason to jump at him and sacrifice her stability. Why not let him lose his balance instead?

To be able to pull off some 4oz stuff against an (aggressive)aggressor, one need quite some training so can keep a cool and focused mind in such a situation.
Trick

 

Re: What if we disregard the 4oz ideal?

Postby Bao on Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:42 am

Trick wrote:South Korea?


LOL! North Korea.
I'm reading about South Korea, maybe that's why.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: What if we disregard the 4oz ideal?

Postby Bao on Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:43 am

Trick wrote: one need quite some training so can keep a cool and focused mind in such a situation.


Yes, that's true. One must be able to stay calm.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
Bao
Great Old One
 
Posts: 9008
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:46 pm
Location: High up north

Re: What if we disregard the 4oz ideal?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:30 am

everything wrote:Still haven't thrown out the 4 oz ideal enough. Suppose you teach your 20 year old daughter and her friends "women's self defense" (not meant to be sexist but in this example, it is her and her other female friends). Perhaps you show them lots of knees and elbows maybe like this:

A 125 lb. woman throwing a few knees and elbows against a 225 lb. attacker may not work, as the attacker can counter.

So, it's more responsible to include concepts and principles (4 oz, deception, position, angles, timing, etc.) of self defense/fighting. It's the responsibility of the teacher to teach in a simple, understandable way.

Published on Oct 31, 2015
McGregor faces off against Game of Thrones' [6ft9 400lb] Gregor Clegane aka 'The Mountain' in a bare knuckle fight to the death. The bigger they are; the harder they fall. For more exclusive video visit TheMacLife.com:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aaehn1aY8Ig
Last edited by marvin8 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: What if we disregard the 4oz ideal?

Postby LaoDan on Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:26 am

windwalker wrote:One can only feel ones own force.

One problem is understanding how much force one is using.
Its never about how much force the other uses since all that one can feel is ones own.

WW,

While I agree with much of what you say, the 4 oz. vs. 1000# statement would be a misunderstanding of physics if interpreted the way that you seem to. The following quote is from an article that I wrote and is posted here:
http://slantedflying.com/softness-sensitivity-and-science-in-taijiquan/

Note that Newton’s Third Law of Motion states, in general, that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. This law means that one practitioner will have the same amount of pressure at the point(s) of contact as the other participant. One practitioner cannot be softer at the point of contact than the other person. One practitioner could try to lessen the mutual (net) force by easing up, or they could try to increase the force by trying to applying heavier pressure, but whatever level one participant is at, it is the same for the other participant.

[See: http://resource-bank.nzip.org.nz/draft-under-construction/mechanics/newtons-third-law-misconception-2/]

Although the amount of force two practitioners have at the point of contact must be the same, one participant could be using less effort to produce that level of force. Effort is related to efficiency, in structure, breathing, even mental anxiety, etc. I suspect that many people incorrectly use the term “force,” when they actually mean “effort.” We want Taijiquan to be as effortless as possible. We seek to feel calm and “comfortable” while practicing.
LaoDan
Wuji
 
Posts: 624
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 11:51 am

Re: What if we disregard the 4oz ideal?

Postby marvin8 on Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:08 am

Published on Jul 21, 2017
Keeping the previous skills in play, you can also enhance the 4oz Moves 1000lbs effect through positioning. Apply the principles of Hua Jing to much larger motions, and keep your opponent from ever getting a direct line of force into you.

By keeping your posture correct and receiving the force instead of fighting it, your can get your opponent to over commit into his attack, even if you haven't moved your feet. Then, you can use your opponent's bad positioning against him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuFIj9yCnqc
User avatar
marvin8
Wuji
 
Posts: 2917
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:30 pm

Re: What if we disregard the 4oz ideal?

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:12 am

Four ounces can easily deflect the vector of force of a thousand pound mass. The crucial elements are time and distance.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 21137
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: What if we disregard the 4oz ideal?

Postby johnwang on Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:54 pm

Trick wrote:Your wife don't do Jiao Shuai 8-)

She does.

Image

In CMA there is a term that's called "武装到牙齿" - arm all the way to the teeth.

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: What if we disregard the 4oz ideal?

Postby everything on Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:50 pm

I'm not a skateboarder but it takes some skill, I think, to jump up and the board "sticks" to your feet. https://www.quora.com/What-causes-a-ska ... n-you-jump
It looks like "magic" to me but it's just skill learned over some time, probably more than beginner level. I don't know if it's "4 oz" level but you can't become Tony Hawk in a weekend.

In a weekend you can learn to sail, but not very well. You won't be at "4 oz" level.

In those 2 examples, you can still learn to skateboard or sail. In a weekend you can't become "tai chi master" but are you doing tai chi? Can it be something fairly effective w/o all the usual shtick/hype/nonsense? I'd say yes of course. If the answer is "no" on a board called Xyq - Bgz - Tjq, there should be a really good reason...
amateur practices til gets right pro til can't get wrong
/ better approx answer to right q than exact answer to wrong q which can be made precise /
“most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. Source of all true art & science
User avatar
everything
Wuji
 
Posts: 8262
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 7:22 pm
Location: USA

Previous

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests