Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby johnwang on Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:12 pm

Can you train your long fist form (such as the one in the following clip) the same way as you train your Taiji form?

If you can, why?

If you can't, why?

Last edited by johnwang on Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Bao on Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:37 pm

johnwang wrote:Can you train your long fist form (such as the one in the following clip) the same way as you train your Taiji form?

If you can, why?


There's slow focused practice in traditional Shaolin. You can use it in any most styles to check your body and become more aware of your mistakes and flaws. That will help you to fine-tune your movements you can move your body even more freely, use even more speed and be able to use even more strength.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby johnwang on Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:37 pm

Bao wrote:There's slow focused practice in traditional Shaolin.

I'm sure "Taiji practice" is more than just the "slow practice". Besides

- body unification that the whole body function as one unit,
- 6 harmony such as hand coordinate with foot, elbow coordinate with ..., ...,

what the difference that may be?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby willie on Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:48 pm

In order to get the most out the movements, There must be yin/yang present or the movements are easy to stop.
An example of what i'm talking about is to stretch outward but to hold back the root. This creates a locked in dynamic.
This dynamic is internal power. It could be used in any format.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby johnwang on Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:58 pm

willie wrote:to stretch outward but to hold back the root. This creates a locked in dynamic.
This dynamic is internal power. It could be used in any format.

Something like this?

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Bao on Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:09 pm

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:There's slow focused practice in traditional Shaolin.

I'm sure "Taiji practice" is more than just the "slow practice". Besides

- body unification that the whole body function as one unit,
- 6 harmony such as hand coordinate with foot, elbow coordinate with ..., ...,

what the difference that may be?


Long fist coordinates limbs and body, but they still move separately from each other. The movements of the limbs are driven by the movement of the limbs.

Tai Chi on the other hand generates all movement from the middle of the body. The movement is controlled down from the feet and up, and from the inside out. The core is active and the limbs more or less just follow the movements of the core. Though it is all coordinated as whole body movement.

You can not just do long fist as tai chi. Tai chi movement demands practice. Good movement demands at least several years of practice, because it's not "natural" for common modern people. It demands to develop body awareness. Most people have much awareness in their hands and feet, but very little awareness in their core. You need to build this awareness first to develop good movement. It's just the same for any good dancer, it demands body awareness and long time practice of a certain kind of body coordination.

This is a Homunculus, a picture of a common person's own body awareness. In Tai Chi, we strive to build the same awareness in all of the body as we all naturally have in the hands and head. If we don't build more body awareness, IMO, good Tai Chi movement is not possible.

Image
Last edited by Bao on Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby windwalker on Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:20 pm

johnwang wrote:Can you train your long fist form (such as the one in the following clip) the same way as you train your Taiji form?

If you can, why?

If you can't, why?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWY4joNlUk


The key word being "your" in each instance.

Once it is "yours" one can do anything they want with it provided they've allowed themselves the freedom to do so.
At that point they are beyond ideas like internal/external/ and style.

With the caveat that unless one has delved deeply into their practice and has achieved
some level of understanding in it acknowledged by those in the style. ie peer reviewed.

With out this, in the soft ware industry there was a saying

"garbage in, garbage out"

If one is representing a style or method, long fist, preying mantis, yang, chen or wu taiji ect.
they may be constantly seeking deeper levels of an art trying to conform to something that
in some cases is not really proven.

Some styles historically have alreadytaken taiji principles and used them to enhance the method, " tàijí tángláng quán)" comes to mind.

The question that some may ask or wonder,
when can one do this or when is one allowed to do this.

Who is it that can detrimen this...no wrong answers,
if it comes from ones self.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:48 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Trick on Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:56 pm

Bao wrote:Long fist coordinates limbs and body, but they still move separately from each other. The movements of the limbs are driven by the movement of the limbs.

I have never studied long fist, so I don't know if this above statement is accurate.
Bao wrote:Tai Chi on the other hand generates all movement from the middle of the body. The movement is controlled down from the feet and up, and from the inside out. The core is active and the limbs more or less just follow the movements of the core. Though it is all coordinated as whole body movement.
but I do have studied Karate, and this statement is also what karate practice strives for. Why would Long fist practice not be designed to generate whole body power generation?
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Patrick on Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:10 am

across the board all systems talk about "whole body power", how the interpret it or put it in practice is another matter. Even a badminton player wants to use his whole body. For some it is simply all parts trying to work optimal in a kinetic chain. A more special "whole body power" has more to do with manipulating your own structure and mass.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby zrm on Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:19 am

Liu He Quan is a Shaolin long fist style and it unsurprisingly focuses on the six harmonies to coordinate whole body movement and internal power. I personally haven't studied the other two main long fist styles of cha quan and mizong quan but they seem to use the same principles. It is very easy to use Xing Yi Quan internal mechanics when performing Shaolin Liu He Quan, which is unsurprising as Liu He Quan was obviously a strong influence in the creation of Xing Yi in the first place.

I think Jarek used to have an article on his website that pointed out that Chen Tai Ji Quan and the Shaolin Long Fist style Taizu Chang Quan contain many of the same movements. The main difference is in the execution of the movements and how the styles are taught. In Shaolin they tend to go from external to internal where in Taiji they focus on internal first. Sal Canzonieri in his book "The Hidden History of the Chinese Internal Martial Arts" pointed out that not only does Shaolin have Taizu Chang Quan, it also has Rou Quan which is performed in a manner very similar to Taiji. You could say that Chen Taiji Quan is exactly what you get when you mix these two styles together and "train your long fist form like taiji". I'm pretty sure John Wang knows all of this btw and is trolling light heartedly as a way to start a discussion.

In my experience the hardest thing in the conversion from fast long fist to taiji long fist is executing movements that require some momentum. I saw a vid of a "Liu He Tai Ji Quan" school in China where they mixed movements from Liu He Quan and Taiji Quan together and addressed this issue by doing small sections of the form fast.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Bao on Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:46 am

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:Long fist coordinates limbs and body, but they still move separately from each other. The movements of the limbs are driven by the movement of the limbs.

I have never studied long fist, so I don't know if this above statement is accurate.
Bao wrote:Tai Chi on the other hand generates all movement from the middle of the body. The movement is controlled down from the feet and up, and from the inside out. The core is active and the limbs more or less just follow the movements of the core. Though it is all coordinated as whole body movement.
but I do have studied Karate, and this statement is also what karate practice strives for. Why would Long fist practice not be designed to generate whole body power generation?


I have had a look at Long Fist and studied briefly some other related and non-related styles. I have never seen the same coordination from Long Fist that I have seen in TJQ, XY and BGZ, but maybe from Baji. I've never witnessed any Karate that can do it. They can coordinate fist from hip movement, but that's not the same. If you have examples from Long Fist, please share video links.

Coordinating hand with stance is IMO, not the same as coordinating and driving movement from the inside out. You can coordinate two diffferent movements together as a whole, or you can use your body as a whole by have one center for initiating all of your movements. These are two different methods. I've studied Hung Gar briefly as well. They can drive punches by shifting from one stance to another. The body is used as a whole, connected. But the limb usually has it's own separate individual movement. It's external whole body coordination, it's not the same. IMHO.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Bao on Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:58 am

Patrick wrote: Even a badminton player wants to use his whole body.


I've played a lot of this game. IMO, wanting and talking about something is one thing. Having a method to practice it and develop it consciously and systematically is another thing.

There's no general system in Badminton to develop it. And therefore, if you get it you get it. Some people get it more than others. If you have a system to develop it, everyone have a chance to develop it and become good at it if you just follow the practice of the system.

I know that a lot of good sports teams and schools borrow methods from different arts as traditional dance, theatre, yoga and Tai Chi. Because they all deal with these things differently, the practitioners of different sports all have very different opportunities to develop body skills that can enhance their own performances.

So again, wanting is one thing but being good at something practically through conscious efforts is another thing. :)
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby yeniseri on Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:41 am

zrm wrote:Liu He Quan is a Shaolin long fist style and it unsurprisingly focuses on the six harmonies to coordinate whole body movement and internal power. I personally haven't studied the other two main long fist styles of cha quan and mizong quan but they seem to use the same principles. It is very easy to use Xing Yi Quan internal mechanics when performing Shaolin Liu He Quan, which is unsurprising as Liu He Quan was obviously a strong influence in the creation of Xing Yi in the first place.

I think Jarek used to have an article on his website that pointed out that Chen Tai Ji Quan and the Shaolin Long Fist style Taizu Chang Quan contain many of the same movements. The main difference is in the execution of the movements and how the styles are taught. In Shaolin they tend to go from external to internal where in Taiji they focus on internal first. Sal Canzonieri in his book "The Hidden History of the Chinese Internal Martial Arts" pointed out that not only does Shaolin have Taizu Chang Quan, it also has Rou Quan which is performed in a manner very similar to Taiji. You could say that Chen Taiji Quan is exactly what you get when you mix these two styles together and "train your long fist form like taiji". I'm pretty sure John Wang knows all of this btw and is trolling light heartedly as a way to start a discussion.

In my experience the hardest thing in the conversion from fast long fist to taiji long fist is executing movements that require some momentum. I saw a vid of a "Liu He Tai Ji Quan" school in China where they mixed movements from Liu He Quan and Taiji Quan together and addressed this issue by doing small sections of the form fast.


Exactly! The interrelationship is there since Chen family style has borrowed ;D from martial system of the day, of which taizu is one of them.
Even Sal Canonizaro (spellingmay be off ;D ) has showed the stylistic names, corresponding changes of outward posture(s), which exactly is what Yang Luchan did when his style came into prominence as he was able to change Chen names into his own visual choreography into what we see today ;D
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby marvin8 on Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:55 am

Bao wrote:
Patrick wrote: Even a badminton player wants to use his whole body.


I've played a lot of this game. IMO, wanting and talking about something is one thing. Having a method to practice it and develop it consciously and systematically is another thing.

There's no general system in Badminton to develop it. And therefore, if you get it you get it. Some people get it more than others. If you have a system to develop it, everyone have a chance to develop it and become good at it if you just follow the practice of the system. . . .

So again, wanting is one thing but being good at something practically through conscious efforts is another thing. :)

Badminton, as in most other sports/arts, does use whole body power (kinetic chain) and has "a method to practice it". They have their own concepts, drills and "system" to "consciously" and "systematically develop it." You may not have realized this due to your lack of knowledge and/or high level experience in badminton.

You may have your own theory on how to better develop this whole body power. However, your theory should be proven in competition to be effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eby5VCmHaQE
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Bhassler on Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:55 am

Agree with zrm.

Bao wrote:I have had a look at Long Fist and studied briefly some other related and non-related styles. I have never seen the same coordination from Long Fist that I have seen in TJQ, XY and BGZ, but maybe from Baji. I've never witnessed any Karate that can do it.


I have. What I learned was that Robert W Smith (among others) did a great dis-service to martial arts in the west when he published his stuff about Karate being inferior along with his comparisons of Northern and Southern CMA. I also learned that really good, authentic Karate is at least as rare as really good, authentic CIMA-- probably more so, because at least with CIMA people have an inkling what they're supposed to be looking for.
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