Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby johnwang on Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:54 am

Bao wrote:Long fist coordinates limbs and body, but they still move separately from each other. The movements of the limbs are driven by the movement of the limbs.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

The 1st long fist punching drill that I did when I was in my long fist class during my 1st year of senior high was:

Face north, both feet separate as shoulder high, legs straight, and fists on the waists.

1. Drop down to low horse stance, rotate body to the left.
2. Straight both legs, right punch with left back shoulder, chest, right front shoulder, right arm all in one line and point to north and face west.
3. Drop down to low horse stance, rotate body to the right.
4. Straight both legs, left punch with right back shoulder, chest, left front shoulder, left arm all in one line and point to north and face east.
5. Repeat 1 through 4 for 60 times.

The long fist punching drill is divided into 3 parts.

1. Move from low horse stance to high stance (地 earth) - borrow force from the ground and transfer power from bottom and up.
2. Rotate body (人 human) - transfer power from back to front.

Image

3. To send power to the arm (天 heaven). The arm motion is only the 3rd stage of the punching process

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby johnwang on Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:11 pm

Don't forget that the Taiji system original came from the long fist system. Even today, there is still a long fist form that's trained in the Taiji system.

太极长拳整个套路52个招势,其中势势相承,动作刚柔相济,缓急相兼,松脆迅猛。其技法多为乘势借力,反筋背骨,采捌肘靠,擒跌闭穴之术,打中有拿,拿中有跌,一招一势极重攻防。动作顺序可以打乱拆开单独练习,每个动作都有起承转合,可以互相衔接,它的手法多变,对练习者的悟性和身体的协调性要求较高。

但是,平常所说的太极长拳是杨氏太极门中流传的一个套路。这个套路比杨氏太极拳多了一些动作,演练速度稍微加快,有发力动作。这个套路在杨氏太极门中不同的支系里,并不一致。

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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Bao on Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:57 pm

marvin8 wrote:Badminton, as in most other sports/arts, does use whole body power (kinetic chain) and has "a method to practice it". They have their own concepts, drills and "system" to "consciously" and "systematically develop it." You may not have realized this due to your lack of knowledge and/or high level experience in badminton.


There are many things people can call whole body movement. If you trip and fall over someone, this could be considered whole body power. Kinetic Chain though is a very good term to describe one aspect of whole body movement.

I don't argue about that you can call badminton or long fist power "whole body power". I am talking about different types of movement. Your vid proves my point. Her arm movement is mostly driven by the arm itself and it's not consciously supported by the center of her body. ... And why should it?

You may have your own theory on how to better develop this whole body power. However, your theory should be proven in competition to be effective.


Why would I? Power and movement should be functional. There's no point of trying to teach a certain type movement to people who for long time studied a different type of movements that suite their own practice. That would be ridiculous. But some badminton people still would benefit from learning other types of whole body movements. It would not directly change their mechanics and techniques, but some people, men especially, could learn to move even more swift and control movement better. Another example is figure skating where teh girls often practice ballroom dancing for their posture. Some teams practice Tai Chi to help their overall body coordination. This was how Tiffany Chen returned to Tai Chi. She did figure skating and her team started to practice Tai Chi. So she started to practice with her father. There's also the other way around for Tai Chi people. IMO, Tai Chi people should study some other arts that is opposite to their movements. Like myself when I was 19 and tried practicing juggling. I was so terribly bad and couldn't learn it just because I couldn't move my arms separated from my body. So there's always two sides of the coin. :)
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Bob on Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:28 pm

Below is the Taizu Quan taught by Liu Yunqiao - long, slow movements no fajin - no fast movements - he learned this when he was very, very young for health - from the family bodyguard who also taught him mizong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3nWtZSfAx4

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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Trick on Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:12 pm

Bao wrote: Like myself when I was 19 and tried practicing juggling. I was so terribly bad and couldn't learn it just because I couldn't move my arms separated from my body.

At the young age of 19 you where already a Taijiquan master 8-)
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby marvin8 on Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:24 am

This may be relevant somehow.

Published on Aug 25, 2012
Wuji Tongbei Chan Quan (Hongdong Tongbei) / Chen Taiji 108 Posture Long Fist
This is the complete, original, Chen family 108 posture Long Fist form performed by a master of the Wuji Tongbei Chan Quan system.
This form is believed by members of the Chen Family to be the form that was used as the basis for the creation of the long form of Chen Taiji by Chen Wangting.
This form has also been claimed by some to be part of the original martial arts brought from Shanxi by Chen Bu, the founder of the Henan branch of the Chen family in the reign of Ming Taizu.
The Hongdong Tong Bei tradition traces back to Chen BuFu, 12th generation descendant of the Henan Chen Taiji family.
Around the year 1780 he killed a government official and was forced to flee. Leaving Henan he traveled to Shanxi province's Hongdong county in Linfen prefecture where he had relatives living. Hongdong was the original home of the Chen family before they were relocated to Henan during the early Ming land clearances.
Changing his name to Guo Yongfu he sought a job teaching martial arts to the son of a local official.
The style he taught became known as Wújí Tōng Bèi Chán Quán (Wuji Connected Through the Back Reeling Boxing) otherwise known as Hongdong Tongbei. It's a mixture of early Chen family martial arts and local Shanxi TongBei. However the core set remains the original Chen family 108 longfist form.
When Chen BuFu fled to Shanxi and established the Wuyi Tongbei Chan Quan tradition he passed this form on to his martial descendants. Small frame Taiji master Chen Liqing traveled to Shanxi in the 1970's to learn the form from the Wuji Tongbei Chan Quan masters and return it to the Chen family curriculum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guUn8BH7pNM


Edit: From a previous RSF thread, http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7633:
salcanzonieri wrote:Hongdong Tongbeiquan is a mixture of the old Chen TJQ style that Guo brought there and the local Hong (red) Quan that they already practiced. The old Chen TJQ was basically considered to be Tongbei Quan (which itself came from mixing Taoist 13 Postures into Shaolin Long fist routines).

(interesting thing about Hongdong area in Shanxi is that Dong Haichuan’s ancestral hometown was originally Hongdong County in Shanxi, and also the ancestral home of the original Chen family of Chen Taiji Quan fame and that of Dong Cheng (董成), founder of Henan province (河南) Tongbi and Tongbei Quan - 通臂 / 通背拳. )

A Chen 12th generation inheritor left Chen Village and went to Hongdong in Shanxi, the ancestral home of the Chen family (and of the Dong family!). This Chen Bufu is believed to have committed a crime while aiding some people. He relocated to Hongdong and changed his name to Guo Yungfu. According to a boxing manual kept by Xu Kuisheng, Guo Yongfu learned the Hongdong Tongbei style from Ji Junsheng. According to the late Meng Naichang (based on his analysis of Hongdong Tongbeiquan text Zhong Yi Quan Tu Gao Ben - The Illustrated Book of Zhong Yi Boxing - published in 1936), the 108 Long Fist set was brought by Guo Yongfu (native of Henan, lived during Qianlong period) to Hongdong. The set is considered to be ‘Long Fist Boxing in 108 Postures’ lost in Chenjiagou. The comparison of ‘General Song of Boxing Classic’ recorded in Chen style manuals and names of movements of Chen style Long Fist Boxing and those of this Tongbei Quan are almost identical. In 1975, Chen Liqing, from Chen village, visited Hsu Fong Qin Hsu in Shanxi and recovered the form.

More info:

According to the book Scholar Boxer by Marnix Wells, the Tongbei Boxing of Hongdong district in Shanxi preserves records that relate this style to both Qi Jiguang’s Boxing Classic and Taiji Quan’s old name of “Long Boxing”. Hongdong Tongbei contains ‘108 manners’, its special characteristics are “the advancing hand always coils, adapting forms more than enough, entering sideways, evasions angle for surprise”.

The Hongdong Tongbei Quan (also called Winding Coiling Fist) of Hongdong County, which is different than Dong’s original Tongbei Quan (but related to it in many ways), also has a 108 posture Long Fist routine. The Chen old frame (Lao Jia) Taiji at one time contained a Chang Quan (Long Fist) routine of 108 postures, but was later considered ‘lost’. The technique names of these two sets are very similar, if not the same. Some people of the 8th generation of Hongdong Tongbei Quan cited in their quanpu manual that, “During the Qianlong Emperor (1736-1795), in Su Baozhen village there was a martial art called Da Xiao Hong Quan - Big and Little Red Fist boxing (In Shanxi, Hong Quan was a very popular style.). One day, a wandering man called Guo Yongfu criticized this art. There was a fight and he won; after that, he taught a boxing he called Chang Quan (Long Fist).” In fact, his real name was probably Chen Youfu from the Chen village, he had changed his name to Guo (maternal side’s maiden name) because he was hiding from Henan authorities (he accidently killed an official there). Hongdong was where the Chen village ancestors were originally descended from and he had retreated there where he was being protected by some local authorities.

The ‘108 Long Fist’ is a system of its own, containing the major routine, a sub-routine, weapon routines, & sparring exercises. The major routine has 108 forms. First 54 forms called "Heaven Star", Remaining 54 forms called "Earth Star". Heaven represents "Yang" & Earth represents "Yin". There are 36 elbow skills, 37 drop-throwing skills, 7 dodging methods, 72 grabs, 24 leg skills, and 24 hand methods. The Sub-routine has 32 regular methods and 27 winding hand methods. This branch of Tongbei is a mixture of an ancient version of Chen Taiji Quan and their local Da-Xiao Hong Quan. But, since Chen Taiji Quan was derived from Dong Cheng’s Tongbei Quan, it closely resembles it in many aspects.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby johnwang on Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:06 pm

So is he doing Taiji, long fist, or both?

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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Steve James on Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:29 pm

What does he say he's doing?
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby everything on Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:35 pm

Is squash racquetball? Is pickleball tennis? Is table tennis tennis? Is futsal football? Is beach soccer soccer? Sort of yes, sort of no. Dmitri's comment about 1 vs. 0 and "level of zoom" seems to apply.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby johnwang on Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:41 pm

everything wrote:Is squash racquetball?

If you are a Taiji master and someone ask you to perform a long fist form by using Taiji principles. can you do it?
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Trick on Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:12 am

johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:Is squash racquetball?

If you are a Taiji master and someone ask you to perform a long fist form by using Taiji principles. can you do it?

since there are very few Taiji masters and they are probably very humble, you may have to wait a long time before an answer.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby johnwang on Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:04 pm

Trick wrote:
johnwang wrote:
everything wrote:Is squash racquetball?

If you are a Taiji master and someone ask you to perform a long fist form by using Taiji principles. can you do it?

since there are very few Taiji masters and they are probably very humble, you may have to wait a long time before an answer.

The question is does Taiji principles apply only on a subset of the moves (those moves that exist in the Taiji form), or Taiji principles can be applied to all MA moves? I saw CXW did jumping kick. He didn't avoid doing jumping kick and say that jumping kick is against the Taiji principles.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Steve James on Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:18 pm

Taiji principles can be applied to all MA moves?


Yes.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby Bob on Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:15 pm

"Taijiquan: Symbol of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts Culture'" Stanley E. Henning, Journal of Chinese Martial Studies,m Summer 2009, Issue 1, pp 76 - 83

"The action of linking circles and spiral motions, which is core to the winding hands techniques and key to generate force in Taiji application, clearly shares some commonality with traditional Ming-dynasty spear techniques"

"I will begin by referring to the Story of the Maiden of Yue in the Spring and Autumn Annals of Wu and Yue, circa 100 AD, which offers the earliest and most succinct description of Chinese martial arts theory. The crux of the theory concerns the interaction of yin and yang in martial practice, and the interrelation between inner concentration and external calm. In fact, the dynamic application of the yin and yang principle were later developed to a more more significant degree in the martial arts systems that collectively came to be known as Taijiquan.

As the foregoing discussion reveals, Taijiquan is a traditional Chinese martial art in form and theory, which integrates the concepts of yin and yang, taiji, etc into its practice and developed from historical forms in unarmed and spear martial arts. Indeed the very name "Taiji" connotes the unity of internal and external forces, which is a key concepts lying at the heart of Chinese thinking, thus making it it an ideal symbol for mainstream traditional Chinese martial culture.

Taijiquan is a unique expression of those universal principles
_______________________________________________________________________

Seems that the principles underlying taijiquan have a universal nature and can be applied to any martial art - just don't call it taijiquan since taijiquan represents a unique take on those principles to a particular set of movements.

Its not a question of applying taiji principles to long fist rather its a question of applying the principles that underlay taijiquan to long fist or any system one so chooses.
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Re: Apply Taiji principles on long fist

Postby I-mon on Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:18 pm

Bob wrote:Below is the Taizu Quan taught by Liu Yunqiao - long, slow movements no fajin - no fast movements - he learned this when he was very, very young for health - from the family bodyguard who also taught him mizong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3nWtZSfAx4



I'm not following this conversation but goddamn that is some nice gongfu. Thanks Bob.
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