Are techniques universal?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Are techniques universal?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:58 pm

johnwang wrote:Are techniques truly universal?

Depends on your definition of universal. If the question is does MMA know all the techniques, I would think most techniques are known, unless there is a rare combination or variation of the following:

• Strikes
• Leg attacks
• Throws & takedowns
• Groundwork
• Submissions
• Chokes & cranks, etc.

Who would practice every technique that exists in the world? I assume they would be a poor fighter. Fighting is more than techniques.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Are techniques universal?

Postby johnwang on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:15 pm

The long fist system has a lot of kicks. But some kicks are still missing.

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Re: Are techniques universal?

Postby Steve James on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:16 pm

Well, even if shuaijiao adopted all the techniques used by other martial arts, it wouldn't make any technique universal. It's only universal is everyone does it. Sure, though, every human being has the potential to execute any technique done by any other human being. But, that's purely theoretical. In practice, every human being has limitations and advantages that must be considered and exploited.

Every watch capoeira? Do you think that all other martial arts will adopt its techniques?
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Re: Are techniques universal?

Postby johnwang on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:25 pm

Steve James wrote:Well, even if shuaijiao adopted all the techniques used by other martial arts, it wouldn't make any technique universal.

I'm with you. I don't believe technique is universal.

My teacher had used this "knee strike, inner hook" combo to defeat a Judo master in a challenge fight. That Judo master didn't expect a Judo match could start without even a "grip fight". It's hard to have the proper alert if that Judo master had never seen that technique before.

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Re: Are techniques universal?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:42 pm

johnwang wrote:
Steve James wrote:Well, even if shuaijiao adopted all the techniques used by other martial arts, it wouldn't make any technique universal.

I'm with you. I don't believe technique is universal.

My teacher had used this "knee strike, inner hook" combo to defeat a Judo master in a challenge fight. That Judo master didn't expect a Judo match could start without even a "grip fight". It's hard to have the proper alert if that Judo master had never seen that technique before.


In MMA where there is no gi, knee strike, Ouchi Gari would not be a unique combination.
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Re: Are techniques universal?

Postby everything on Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:27 pm

It sounds more like there are two questions:

Are some techniques universal?

Are some techniques pretty unique, especially in another context?
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Re: Are techniques universal?

Postby marvin8 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:12 pm

johnwang wrote:The long fist system has a lot of kicks. But some kicks are still missing.


Michelle Waterson is a UFC fighter. In the following video, she explains why she had to adjust her kicking; when she started to fight professionally in MMA.

To paraphrase Michelle: She learned when she used the Axe kick she would be swept off her feet. When chambering her karate kicks, they were telegraphing and too slow. Karate kicks are pretty but they make her stand tall. Therefore, she would be taken down or susceptible to a punch. So, she had to learn how to sit down on her kicks. She found the Muay Thai low leg kick chopping down at an angle, using the shin, was powerful and effective.

It’s more important to set up the kick with a punch, etc. How is the opponent defending the jab or punch (e.g., parry, pull, check, slip, etc.)? . . .

To somewhat summarize, you can know a lot of different karate kicks. However, it may be better to use a few powerful, effective kicks that are known to be useful in competition, as you can be countered.

Published on Feb 8, 2017
UFC strawweight contender Michelle Waterson demonstrated a variety of kicking techniques during her media day in Brooklyn:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPkbuwaxQzc
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Re: Are techniques universal?

Postby cloudz on Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:15 am

johnwang wrote:Can you come up 35 different ways to do "foot sweep"? If you can only come up 10, what make you think that MA technique can be universal?

Is "flying knee" universal? Before I saw the MT flying knee, I truly didn't know that there is a such MA technique as "flying knee". IMO, if you don't know, you just don't know.




Well.. before that first time someone did a flying knee for the first time ever in the history of time; they didn't know either...
perhaps more importantly you need to be clear what exactly you mean by Universal here, the way you're using it.
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Re: Are techniques universal?

Postby Trick on Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:00 pm

marvin8 wrote: When chambering her karate kicks, they were telegraphing and too slow. Karate kicks are pretty

World class Karate competitors(kumite) tend to not kick in a one-two(first chambering then kick out) kind of way. In Kata(forms) competition kicks can sometime look "pretty"....just to clarify a little
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Re: Are techniques universal?

Postby johnwang on Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:18 pm

"Chambering and then kick out" is the same as "compressing and then punch out (release)". It can generate maximum power but both are slow (because the extra distance added).

In the following CXW's clip, you can see the "compress and release".

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Re: Are techniques universal?

Postby marvin8 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:03 am

johnwang wrote:The following 3 Chinese wrestling techniques that I have not seen ever used in any MA system yet.

1. Knee strike single leg - Use knee to strike at the inside of your opponent's upper leg, bounce his leg off the ground, you then grab that leg and take him down.
2. Double inner hooks - use right leg to hook your opponent's left leg off the ground. You use right hand to grab that leg. You then use left leg to hook his right leg off the ground. Since he will have no leg left, he will fall.
3. Outer twist - When you get head lock on your opponent, you use your right leg to twist your opponent's right leg, bend his knee joint inward, and crash his structure. This technique is extremely dangerous to train with your partner.

In mathematics, if you want to prove a theory is wrong, all you need is to find a "counter example".

Will you be able to come up any technique that you have not seen in other MA systems?

(Another try at answering, as I may have went slightly off topic, earlier.) If you consider MMA to be a MA system, then likely no. All of the techniques you have mentioned so far (3 Chinese wrestling techniques. knee, single leg, inner hooks, headlock, flying knees) have been seen in one form/combination or another in MMA.

Even if you find a non-universal (rare) technique to add to your MA system, that does not guarantee it cannot be defended against. A fighter does not have to know/"have seen" a specific technique to defend against it. A good fighter can defend against general categories of techniques (e.g., Strikes, Leg attacks, Throws & takedowns, Groundwork, Submissions, Chokes & cranks) by controlling distance, timing, position, etc.

For example, to defend against kicks/knees one can control distance (e.g., stay outside of kicking range), stand tall, check by lifting leg, use angles, etc:
Image

To defend against takedowns (e.g., single/double leg) one can use knees, uppercuts, sprawl, etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlExgLXVdGM

Woodley vs. Maia: In Welterweight Title match, Maia a one-dimensional submission specialist, attempted 21 takedowns and finished 0 (none) of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dg1hTTJ1EFM

To defend against throws/takedowns, one can control wrist/arm, keep hips away, etc:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMI2PywVyQI
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Re: Are techniques universal?

Postby Steve James on Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:33 pm

From the perspective of the human body, there are techniques that work universally --whether or not a particular martial art uses them. For example, a wrist can be broken in at least four ways. A person's breath can be stopped in many ways, but there are many chokes, and ways to break (or damage) a neck. Making a brain bounce around in the skull will also cause damage.

So, in a contest between someone who's only studied wrestling and one who's only studied wrestling, the techniques may be different; but, they share the objective of disabling a human body. Their options are consequently limited, if that's the goal.

Sambo fighters might use a casting punch; a boxer might use a hook; an mt fighter might use an elbow. At least one aspect of their punch's goal is the same and will have a more or less similar result. Dropping someone on his head will work too.
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