New style of Tai Chi

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby windwalker on Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:00 am

Appledog wrote:
windwalker wrote:Along with what Niall, said in terms of "proof" his domain the ring.


And he is welcome to it!

As you are welcome to doing what you do. But let's be honest, it is not just that what I do is different than what you or Niall do, or the attitude we bring to the forum. It is that I am seeking a credibility far beyond what Niall's (or your) acceptance could provide. We all travel in different circles, I guess.


Ture but understanding what circles one travels in is good to know more importantly to understand.

You've said you don't seek acceptance nor need it, and what you do is different.
If its so different it might beg the question of why compare it to other the 90%
It should be able to be easily noted and understood under its own merits .

If credibility is the problem a name is not going to change anything, nor is writing well,
or who you know. Its what one does, or can do among ones peers...who ever one deems them to be.
If you feel most or all here do not really practice or know taiji, why seek answers or post.


Steve, mentioned "peer review" citing many who've practiced for decades on their work who post here.
While they may not be anyone's "peer" directly, in this community the one you post in,
they've gained a voice.

why not call your taiji style

inner circle taiji

"Freeing the body allowing mind to create."

Image

denoting what you feel is missing in the taiji as taught in the area that
you live in or are going to move to.
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:00 am

Appledog - Frankly, I don't really know if you are serious or not, but.... I would suggest that you are an attention seeker... :-\
if I am wrong, please prove me wrong... :P

Ok, I could give you a few thoughts on it. But let's see if you are honest and can answer a few questions first...

Appledog wrote:In this light I am actually empowered in the sense that I can take the best of what I know across Yang, Chen, Sun and Wu style and come up with something special.


What do you mean is the best of those styles?
WHat would be special about your style? What would be different?

One of the selling points is that I would guarantee that people would be able to feel and use their chi within the first six months of training at my school -- or they would get their money back. I would also promise that they would achieve some competence at fighting -- again, with a money back guarantee.


Use their qi how?
How long before fighting skills? How would you teach those fighting skills?

Do you consider yourself to be able to use qi? And if so, how?
Do you consider yourself having fighting skills? If so, how have you achieved them?
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Steve James on Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:10 am

I've been doing Tai Chi for as long as anyone else here, so I am not impressed by the posturing that goes on here.


Well, how would you know? I'd guess there are a few people who have practice a few decades more than you. But, as windwalker said, on this forum, the people here are your peers. That doesn't mean that they're superior or inferior or that their words are unquestionable. It just comes down to the fact that they've practiced tcc, or claim to have.

Hey, if someone said that he was creating a new style of bagua, the response would be similar.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby marvin8 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:19 am

I may misunderstand, as your posts are confusing, to me.
Appledog wrote:I've been considering creating a new style of Tai Chi, and have been thinking of a name to call it. It wouldn't really be an entirely new style of tai chi -- I must admit that one of the reasons I am considering doing this is that I don't have a complete lineage in the sense that I do not have a responsibility to carry on a tradition. . . .

CTH never called what he did a particular style of Tai Chi. I am just quoting your school's website. But as I've stated I am interested in lineage and historical skill, so what you do has nothing to do with what I am interested in learning.

Appledog wrote:The post was about fake taiji ("99% of tai chi is fake, bad, just forms, watered down, misguided, a sham, unicorns, etc. The problem (even on RSF) is no one agrees on the other 1%."). That's the point I am interested in. I am analyzing the final 1%. I note there will be a percentage of that 1% who knows tai chi is fake but doesn't know what the real tai chi is. Let's call this group A. . . .

What about group A? The plain and simple fact is that people like you and me are highly likely to be in group A. Even someone like myself who has had very clear and patient teaching, am probably closer to A than to B. Certainly far far closer than I would like. Being so confident in your methods, talking about self-teaching and then saying you don't have a claim to any skill, feels a little thin. I think if we are going to admit that 99% of tai chi is fake we should be more honest with ourselves and say that we don't really know so much as we think.

If you "don't have a complete lineage," "interested in lineage and historical skill," "know tai chi is fake but you don't know what the real tai chi is" and "You should be more honest with yourself and say that you don't really know so much as you think," then name it iFake Tai Chi?
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby GrahamB on Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:20 am

Somebody who thinks they are good enough to start their own style should have no problem posting a video clip. You however seem to have fallen at the first hurdle...
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Niall Keane on Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:06 am

Appledog wrote:
Niall Keane wrote:
Appledog wrote:
No, I just said I am not anyone's disciple. Why should that be of any concern? Your teacher isn't part of any lineage either, so what's the big deal?



You dunce !!!
...
Put the cone on your head and face the corner!


No I don't think you understand. CMA, even limiting it to IMA, and even just to Tai Chi, is such a large and wonderful and beautiful world, that you really hurt yourself a lot when you talk to people the way you do above.

Now to the topics you have raised. CTH never called what he did a particular style of Tai Chi. I am just quoting your school's website. But as I've stated I am interested in lineage...?


Now you are being deliberately deceiptful... Cheng Tin Hung didn't align himself with any of the famous families... BUT he had a lineage...
do you even understand the term?

On that website there is even a page "wudang style" with a graph of the lineage... dont play the fool... you set out to play the gallery with lies and half-truths... exactly as you plan to play your unfortunate students.


http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/informatio ... i_chi.html


Oh... and to answer your other question about my ability to teach traditional tai chi chuan...
traditiinal Wu family style ... no. I never claimed to train such?
Traditional Wudang / practical tai chi chuan - lineage as linked above... absolutely, in fact im authorised by Dan Docherty to have students baishi under me...

You'll also find photos of me doing applications and tuishou in Dan's books, just like you'll find photos of him likewise in Cheng Tin-hung's books.

How many of your past teachers in Chen , Wu and Yang styles bestowed the same level of recognition of skill upon you? It's a rhetorical question.
Last edited by Niall Keane on Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:29 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Niall Keane on Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:44 am

GrahamB wrote:Somebody who thinks they are good enough to start their own style should have no problem posting a video clip. You however seem to have fallen at the first hurdle...


Ah... shur .. it's Chang San Feng himself don't ya know? He's just being all xuan xuan.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Appledog on Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:50 pm

marvin8 wrote:I may misunderstand, as your posts are confusing, to me.


Well then let me help you with that. Yes, Marvin, you misunderstood. I don't feel this discussion is a competition. I am exploring the breadth of the topic. If you think your answer is good enough, I am not going to argue against your opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, and I am not here to convince anyone your opinion should change. I have learned you don't change a person's opinion, experience does that.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Appledog on Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:10 pm

GrahamB wrote:Somebody who thinks they are good enough to start their own style should have no problem posting a video clip. You however seem to have fallen at the first hurdle...


This could be solved simply and quickly by asking you yourself to post a video of yourself doing tai chi recently. After all, since you say it would normally be required to establish credibility, you would need to first establish the credibility of such a system in order to credibly ask others to participate.

Are you willing to take part in the creation of such a system of peer review? I am guessing it doesn't matter to you since you don't really do Tai Chi anymore? Help me see the light on this.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Appledog on Sat Aug 05, 2017 4:31 pm

Niall Keane wrote:Now you are being deliberately deceiptful... Cheng Tin Hung didn't align himself with any of the famous families... BUT he had a lineage...
do you even understand the term?


Which term, lineage or deceiptful?

Look, lets make this part of the discussion very open and obvious to avoid any misunderstanding. Please tell me who Cheng Tin Hung's teacher was and let us see what his lineage is. Is it Wu family? Yang family? I mean, this is public knowledge, isn't it?

Niall Keane wrote:dont play the fool... you set out to play the gallery with lies and half-truths... exactly as you plan to play your unfortunate students.


That doesn't make sense -- you started this discussion, and you're the one who's so upset. If you want to talk about it though I am game. First, since you brought up lineage, you can tell us who CTH's teachers were.

Niall Keane wrote:Oh... and to answer your other question about my ability to teach traditional tai chi chuan...
traditiinal Wu family style ... no. I never claimed to train such?


But Niall. That's what I am interested in learning. Wu style, Chen style, Sun style, Yang style. I don't want to learn wudang style. Wudang style is not the same art which is taught in the Wu, Chen, Yang, Sun families. Right? So why do you even care about this thread?

Niall Keane wrote:Traditional Wudang / practical tai chi chuan - lineage as linked above... absolutely, in fact im authorised by Dan Docherty to have students baishi under me...

You'll also find photos of me doing applications and tuishou in Dan's books, just like you'll find photos of him likewise in Cheng Tin-hung's books.

How many of your past teachers in Chen , Wu and Yang styles bestowed the same level of recognition of skill upon you? It's a rhetorical question.


Okay then I won't answer. I don't think you would like the answer anyway.

I'm just saying, it would seem to me that if someone wanted to learn Wu style Tai Chi, it would be better to go to the Wu family. You're not really qualified to judge people in that area, since you can't teach Wu style. I mean, you just said so, right? Having said so, if I wanted to teach something out of Wu style, who are you to speak to me?

In a perfect world, Niall, I would want to learn Tai Chi from you or at least visit your school since at least you talk a good game. Maybe we could get together and find a way to promote Tai Chi and help people. But this isn't a perfect world, there are many problems in this world. I am looking to work with people who are trying to be part of the solution to these problems. I'd like to think you are faking your weird attitude to try and solve the problems in this world. So I forgive you.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Appledog on Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:01 pm

windwalker wrote:If credibility is the problem a name is not going to change anything, nor is writing well,
or who you know. Its what one does, or can do among ones peers...who ever one deems them to be.
If you feel most or all here do not really practice or know taiji, why seek answers or post.


As you may have read earlier, a few months ago I visited a guy who had been doing yang style for over 20 years. He taught in a small club in Scarborough on and off, and had a place downtown. Now, in hindsight, I realize I was his senior -- enough for it to be obvious -- in many ways such as who our teachers were, length of time practicing, what we knew and could do, etc. But I never really revealed to him what I knew or anything like that because of our attitudes. I would hint at it over the years but he would just brush it off -- he wasn't interested in anything but his own self-promotion. I didn't realize that at the time but just let it slide because of my attitude at the time. I was just a humble tai chi player who did his forms in the park with the old ladies every morning. I would just listen to and watch everybody. I would learn from anybody. People would come up to our group all the time and give little lessons. It was another world. Everyone shared, across styles. But back to this guy. Often when he would walk by he wasn't even practicing (it should have been clear to him I was outpacing him even then). However, I never thought of myself as above him, really. I would like to think that we were, in a sense, friends -- I lent him some of my tai chi books, we practiced together, we talked about art and life. So after all this time, 15 years or more not seeing him, I went back to visit. We were talking about Tai Chi. Just talking about the basics. And in the discussion he began referring to various kinds of high level concepts like internal force, chi, peng, and the like. So I asked him about those terms and he dodged again with more mumbo jumbo. So finally, I asked him, how he trained it? How do you actually train these things, because as everyone knows, people practice in the parks all day long and they never get anywhere. So how is it actually done? And he got a little defensive.

So I explained to him not to worry, I had studied Yang style under this lineage, Chen style under that lineage, Sun style (which I had demonstrated him earlier) and even spent some time in Eddie Wu's school. I told him that there were no secrets, I told him about Feng's efforts, the promotion of Chen style over Yang style, Yang Cheng-Fu's new form for health, the cultural revolution, so on and so forth. But he was stuck. He believed in his secrets. He said, you train it your way and I'll train it my way. I was actually a little dumbstruck. Why? Why did he have this secretive, elitist attitude? I could tell by his form he didn't really get very far in his training. At least, he had somehow worked his karate out of his Tai Chi form, but I would have expected no less in 15 years of practice since we last met.

You see, Dunning-Kruger syndrome has another side which few people seem to mention whenever they bring it up. It's that people who are in fact very skilled at something tend to underestimate their own ability and as a result to feel that the skills needed to achieve their level of ability are easy to obtain. Perhaps this is what people like CMC meant when he said "there are no secrets". In actuality, there aren't -- but it can feel like that sometimes when you are closer than you should be to the bottom of the barrel, especially if you have really been putting in the years.

A lot of people begin to feel personal shame, unbearable personal shame at their situation. 50? Flabby gut? Doing Tai Chi for 30 years? Haven't been to a class in 10? Never push hands? This isn't a problem unless you are thinking of doing tai chi seriously, running a school, promoting the art. But if you are, it's a serious problem. And instead of seeing people in this situation flee to judo, I have decided to try and help them pick up what they missed in Tai Chi. My teachers had terrible English even after living in America for many years. It is my duty to carry on their teaching and make it accessible to others and I am in a unique position to do that. Even just that -- being in a unique position to teach -- is important. If you do not have this care, this situation, or this responsibility, then asking me why I post here seems like a logical question. However if you understand those three things at least, the answer will become obvious.
Last edited by Appledog on Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby windwalker on Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:37 pm

I've been considering creating a new style of Tai Chi, and have been thinking of a name to call it.


inner circle taiji

"Freeing the body allowing mind to create."


I take it you didn't care for the name suggestion.
It could also allude to "inner" training that is not commonly known, available though you based on the different teachers and
styles you've worked with.


You write a lot.
I've met a lot of long term taiji people, many seem to feel I have some skill even though its not something I would say.
Some I don't agree with, not an issue for me, its their training nothing to do with me or my training.


I have decided to try and help them pick up what they missed in Tai Chi. My teachers had terrible English even after living in America for many years. It is my duty to carry on their teaching and make it accessible to others and I am in a unique position to do that. Even just that -- being in a unique position to teach -- is important. If you do not have this care, this situation, or this responsibility, then asking me why I post here seems like a logical question.


I also work with many who seem to have missed or maybe not understood their training even after many yrs of practice,
I claim no skill they tend to come to me by word of mouth, or having seen some of my practice.

No I do not feel its my responsibility for what others achieve or not.

Which is why I asked about posting here.
My post are mostly a conversation about things I have an interest in.
Or maybe providing some first hand accounting of things questioned.

Having said this as younger man, I took it as a mission to correct many misconceptions about CMA.
In doing so the way of correction was by having matches "sparring" with others.
Something I did for many yrs.

In a way I can understand your point
but do not feel the responsibility as you do.

You've talked about some not knowing or practicing taiji
I don't consider what I do as taiji anymore as thought of
in the common frame work that most people use.

In this I've found my own freedom
hope others find theirs.

back to the topic.

In looking for a name what would you want to convey?
what would you say are the main points of your practice,
what enables your practice to be so different then the 90% you mentioned?
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:28 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Appledog on Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:47 pm

windwalker wrote:In a way I can understand your point
but do not feel the responsibility as you do.


It was a gift.

windwalker wrote:In looking for a name what would you want to convey?
what would you say are the main points of your practice,
what enables your practice to be so different then the 90% you mentioned?


It's just a style of Tai Chi, but to define the terms very carefully, it is not better nor worse than any of the major styles of Tai Chi. I just find that when teaching Tai Chi it is easier to teach it "my way" since I understand it that way and am a good teacher in other disciplines. In that sense I plan to be a better teacher and a better school and have better students than 90% of the other Tai Chi schools out there.

So I mean the style, the lineage, that only accounts for how the art is taught, not what it is or how it is used. That being said, people who go into a Tai Chi school generally are taught poorly or incompletely, and I feel sorry for them. Working within a tradition could be seen as limiting if you are not very close to the source. And to a certain extent being very close to the source just means you have a right to dictate the terms of instruction anyways.

A big difference? I guess if anything the big difference here is that when I make a change to the curriculum I am doing it intentionally for the benefit of the students; in 90% of other schools when the instructor makes a change to the curriculum it's because he is lazy, has settles, or does not know what he is doing -- very often they won't have a right to make such a change anyways (due to lineage concerns). In a way, you could say it's an open market, with lots of low hanging fruit. You can't just claim you are doing Yang style Tai Chi, for example. It's their family name. People should have some respect, and acknowledge where this stuff comes from. It's kind of strange how I've seen this work out but it is usual the people who are most disrespectful who have the least amount of skill. Thus I strive to be respectful.
Last edited by Appledog on Sat Aug 05, 2017 5:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby windwalker on Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:06 pm

A big difference? I guess if anything the big difference here is that when I make a change to the curriculum I am doing it intentionally for the benefit of the students; in 90% of other schools when the instructor makes a change to the curriculum it's because he is lazy, has settles, or does not know what he is doing --


lots of assumptions.

most of the park teachers and others I've met in the US, China, and Taiwan were very sincere
and worked very hard at what they did. Many under linage teachers always seeking deeper skill to help with
their own practice and I assume make them better teachers.

Those who had schools and were known, taught in a way that was most conductive to their students.
Sometimes in a way that they would not really agree with themselves but part of it is "marketing"
if one has a business.

any way,, it will be interesting reading your findings should you post them.

MartinSF, in a way is doing the same things for the same reasons bring what
he feels is authentic CMA training back to the US.

wish you both luck ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Aug 05, 2017 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby charles on Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:00 pm

Appledog wrote:So I explained to him not to worry, I had studied Yang style under this lineage, Chen style under that lineage, Sun style (which I had demonstrated him earlier) and even spent some time in Eddie Wu's school.


I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I'm curious who were your primary teachers of Taijiquan. Living in the Toronto area, I'm familiar with Eddie Wu's school and used to know several of his disciples. Who were the other of your primary teachers from whom you learned more than most people learn?
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