New style of Tai Chi

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Aug 06, 2017 1:45 pm

Water style is quite good and offers some new ways of looking at tai chi
I have yet to see any teachers in the second generation who have quite got it
As for the clip above it is just factory tai chi not done all that well
I was teaching that to beginners over 30 years ago
Not sure how far it goes back but I think it was developed by Sha Gou Zheng quite some time before that
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:48 pm

Appledog wrote:
Niall Keane wrote:Now you are being deliberately deceiptful... Cheng Tin Hung didn't align himself with any of the famous families... BUT he had a lineage...
do you even understand the term?


Which term, lineage or deceiptful?

Look, lets make this part of the discussion very open and obvious to avoid any misunderstanding. Please tell me who Cheng Tin Hung's teacher was and let us see what his lineage is. Is it Wu family? Yang family? I mean, this is public knowledge, isn't it?

Niall Keane wrote:dont play the fool... you set out to play the gallery with lies and half-truths... exactly as you plan to play your unfortunate students.


That doesn't make sense -- you started this discussion, and you're the one who's so upset. If you want to talk about it though I am game. First, since you brought up lineage, you can tell us who CTH's teachers were.

Niall Keane wrote:Oh... and to answer your other question about my ability to teach traditional tai chi chuan...
traditiinal Wu family style ... no. I never claimed to train such?




But Niall. That's what I am interested in learning. Wu style, Chen style, Sun style, Yang style. I don't want to learn wudang style. Wudang style is not the same art which is taught in the Wu, Chen, Yang, Sun families. Right? So why do you even care about this thread?

Niall Keane wrote:Traditional Wudang / practical tai chi chuan - lineage as linked above... absolutely, in fact im authorised by Dan Docherty to have students baishi under me...

You'll also find photos of me doing applications and tuishou in Dan's books, just like you'll find photos of him likewise in Cheng Tin-hung's books.

How many of your past teachers in Chen , Wu and Yang styles bestowed the same level of recognition of skill upon you? It's a rhetorical question.


Okay then I won't answer. I don't think you would like the answer anyway.

I'm just saying, it would seem to me that if someone wanted to learn Wu style Tai Chi, it would be better to go to the Wu family. You're not really qualified to judge people in that area, since you can't teach Wu style. I mean, you just said so, right? Having said so, if I wanted to teach something out of Wu style, who are you to speak to me?

In a perfect world, Niall, I would want to learn Tai Chi from you or at least visit your school since at least you talk a good game. Maybe we could get together and find a way to promote Tai Chi and help people. But this isn't a perfect world, there are many problems in this world. I am looking to work with people who are trying to be part of the solution to these problems. I'd like to think you are faking your weird attitude to try and solve the problems in this world. So I forgive you.




So, that's your game troll? Quote everything that suits your twisting fallacious arguments and leave out the parts that already answer and destroy your argument?
Parts like this:

Now you are being deliberately deceiptful... Cheng Tin Hung didn't align himself with any of the famous families... BUT he had a lineage...
do you even understand the term?

On that website there is even a page "wudang style" with a graph of the lineage... dont play the fool... you set out to play the gallery with lies and half-truths... exactly as you plan to play your unfortunate students.

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/informatio ... i_chi.html



So I guess you are playing the gallery - troll style? Misquote / snip here / edit there, so as to fool the inattentive? Well for those others who you hope to confuse....

Here's my, My Sifu and Cheng tin-hung's lineage... (Cheng Tin-hung who in a published interview with the current gate-keeper of Wu style was said to be one-time gate-keeper of same style... Wudang / Practical and Wu are closely related. )

A "lineage" according to the Oxford dictionary means:
Direct descent from an ancestor; ancestry or pedigree.


There is a direct line of Tai Chi Chuan senior disciples (those authorized to have students baishi under them - if you understand the weight that carries..)

http://sanshou.webs.com/lineage%20chart.jpg

Image
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Appledog on Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:56 pm

yeniseri wrote:All the styles after Chen family style are "new style" and even Beijing shi taijiquan was alleged to be such so just changing external choreography does't make a style "new" but they all possess yamgshengong through principle and concept. Of course, the martial conditioning, etc must be taught, trained and tested to fit whatever this "new" paradigm is, or should be in a 'new style'.

Men Huifeng created a New Style called Dongyue Taijiquan alittle while ago but here is an except



Thanks. This is actually very interesting. I can tell just from the presentation that this style of Tai Chi was created by somebody who was qualified to attempt such a thing. It has several interesting and unique characteristics and I'm proud someone attempted this.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Appledog on Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:02 pm

Niall Keane wrote:So, that's your game troll? Quote everything that suits your twisting fallacious arguments and leave out the parts that already answer and destroy your argument?


I already told you, I am interested in learning traditional Tai Chi from one of the main families. I am not interested in learning from you or your lineage.

EDIT: Actually, there is one thing I am interested in from you Niall. What do you think of Dongyue tai chi as presented in that clip? Given that this is a discussion forum it would be more productive for you to comment on that video (for or against) and illustrate why. Is it a valid attempt? Was Men Huifeng being arrogant or is he just a dreamer? We and especially I might learn something. Hope you agree!
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:19 pm

I already pointed out she did not invent it
It is factory tai chi that has been around for at least 30 years that I know of
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Appledog on Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:49 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I already pointed out she did not invent it
It is factory tai chi that has been around for at least 30 years that I know of


Oh, I thought you meant water style tai chi.

Yeah of course, it's the presentation and branding I am referring to. Doing Tai Chi as single movements is a tradition that has certainly been passed down before Men Huifeng, for sure.

It's the packaging, the steps behind it, to go from A to D vs B and C instead of requiring a giant leap, which seem more important to me.

I'm close to formulating the style and naming it. There's just one problem, organization of the material.

There is so much basic physical conditioning in the system due to the modern lifestyle, that people might not start learning the form for over a year. Right now I am working on chin to toe, splits, and the bridge as being core requirements at the white belt level. Do you think this is too extreme? It may be easier to break the progression across belts; i.e. splits progression for white belt, chin to toe for yellow belt, and bridge progression for orange. I've also been taking a hard look at DuanWei form 1 from Chen style, and Yang style, since these forms have basically the same purpose as the forms I am creating. I am actually really impressed with the Yang style duanwei 1, moreso than the chen version (which would seem odd if you know me because I love Chen style the most, even though I was always a Yang guy). Anyways, although I have great respect for the Chen family today I like to do the movements, perhaps, more like Yang style than I should in that I like them to be big, open, round and continuous. I am sure I will come up with something interesting.

The thing that has been bugging me most is that Tai Chi is a complete art -- everything is really in the long form (more or less) -- i mean, in terms of things like qigong sets, applications, etc -- really there is just so much there. And it's a blessing to be sure but also something of a curse, because the beginner may find it difficult to work on anything in particular. Even YCF's 10 points are a jumbled mess unless broken down into some sort of logical, stepwise method of application. The difficult is of course creating a form which illustrates just a small handful of concepts without being incorrect tai chi. It's actually such a problem, because the limitation being intentional, itself almost breaks the tai-chi-ness of the form. I also don't want to create a form which is "really" just a series of qigong movements. What I want to do is create a shortcut idea to doing the form properly (lets just assume you know what I mean by that for now) with a minimum of preparation work.

Zhu TianCai tells a story about how he visited another school of Wushu in China, he was invited, and taught them some tai chi. He spent more than six hours with them going over what amounts to Opening of tai chi (raise hands and grasp bird's tail, essentially). The movement is a small number of basic circles, three, four or five at most I think, depending on how you count them. But they just couldn't get the movement because they were unaware or unable to do the taiji circle movements. Thus they conceptualized every part of the motion and tried to come up with a number of steps to perform it i.e. 1. raise hands up, 2. turn to the left and turn palms to the left, etc. and a whole list of requirements for each posture. So in the end they could not get it, but it's such a simple foundational movement, just front circle left and right, then then stereo circle then split circle (i.e. just three or four foundational movements). What I want to do is reduce back to those foundational movements and expand the set out to a short 10 or 20 moves which can be done in 2 or 3 minutes. This is snack-sized Tai chi, for beginners, and it requires the utmost care to get it right. Here getting it right does not necessarily mean it is a difficult form. it is supposed to be exceedingly easy. Anyways I've rambled long enough, thanks for the clarification and letting me bounce that question off you.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby cloudz on Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:25 am

Appledog wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I already pointed out she did not invent it
It is factory tai chi that has been around for at least 30 years that I know of


Oh, I thought you meant water style tai chi.

Yeah of course, it's the presentation and branding I am referring to. Doing Tai Chi as single movements is a tradition that has certainly been passed down before Men Huifeng, for sure.

It's the packaging, the steps behind it, to go from A to D vs B and C instead of requiring a giant leap, which seem more important to me.

I'm close to formulating the style and naming it. There's just one problem, organization of the material.

There is so much basic physical conditioning in the system due to the modern lifestyle, that people might not start learning the form for over a year. Right now I am working on chin to toe, splits, and the bridge as being core requirements at the white belt level. Do you think this is too extreme? It may be easier to break the progression across belts; i.e. splits progression for white belt, chin to toe for yellow belt, and bridge progression for orange. I've also been taking a hard look at DuanWei form 1 from Chen style, and Yang style, since these forms have basically the same purpose as the forms I am creating. I am actually really impressed with the Yang style duanwei 1, moreso than the chen version (which would seem odd if you know me because I love Chen style the most, even though I was always a Yang guy). Anyways, although I have great respect for the Chen family today I like to do the movements, perhaps, more like Yang style than I should in that I like them to be big, open, round and continuous. I am sure I will come up with something interesting.

The thing that has been bugging me most is that Tai Chi is a complete art -- everything is really in the long form (more or less) -- i mean, in terms of things like qigong sets, applications, etc -- really there is just so much there. And it's a blessing to be sure but also something of a curse, because the beginner may find it difficult to work on anything in particular. Even YCF's 10 points are a jumbled mess unless broken down into some sort of logical, stepwise method of application. The difficult is of course creating a form which illustrates just a small handful of concepts without being incorrect tai chi. It's actually such a problem, because the limitation being intentional, itself almost breaks the tai-chi-ness of the form. I also don't want to create a form which is "really" just a series of qigong movements. What I want to do is create a shortcut idea to doing the form properly (lets just assume you know what I mean by that for now) with a minimum of preparation work.

Zhu TianCai tells a story about how he visited another school of Wushu in China, he was invited, and taught them some tai chi. He spent more than six hours with them going over what amounts to Opening of tai chi (raise hands and grasp bird's tail, essentially). The movement is a small number of basic circles, three, four or five at most I think, depending on how you count them. But they just couldn't get the movement because they were unaware or unable to do the taiji circle movements. Thus they conceptualized every part of the motion and tried to come up with a number of steps to perform it i.e. 1. raise hands up, 2. turn to the left and turn palms to the left, etc. and a whole list of requirements for each posture. So in the end they could not get it, but it's such a simple foundational movement, just front circle left and right, then then stereo circle then split circle (i.e. just three or four foundational movements). What I want to do is reduce back to those foundational movements and expand the set out to a short 10 or 20 moves which can be done in 2 or 3 minutes. This is snack-sized Tai chi, for beginners, and it requires the utmost care to get it right. Here getting it right does not necessarily mean it is a difficult form. it is supposed to be exceedingly easy. Anyways I've rambled long enough, thanks for the clarification and letting me bounce that question off you.


I don't know why you really need to worry about coming up with your "own" form so to speak. I mean I get it, it will be a compendium of your favourite stuff, your favourite stylistic flavourings.. But really all you need is the first section for a beginner. You don't need to make some new short form. The 3 sections kind of build on eachother I think. You could even organize them so you focus in on a particular group of learning(s) in each solo form and or section. When you say organizing that's the key, remember you don't have to re invent the wheel.

Maybe it's your background, but for me your approach is too reasoned out, too planned out. I think an intuitive approach, just helping each person by leading them along a path.. some form, some solo exercise, some push hands, some technique, some sparring drills.. it's a good start. Just keep offering up the tools for progress, a good student will appreciate a good teacher, and a good teacher can not help but teach a good student..
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:30 am

I don't know why you really need to worry about coming up with your "own" form so to speak.
...
Maybe it's your background, but for me your approach is too reasoned out, too planned out. I think an intuitive approach, just helping each person by leading them along a path.. some form, some solo exercise, some push hands, some technique, some sparring drills.. it's a good start.


The few years I've had my own group and taught people, I found out that your more intuitive approach worked much better than what I had thought I was going to teach and how I had planned. Quite fast after trying to be a teacher, I abandoned my plans and started to improvise each and every class. Everything went much better this way. I could adjust my classes to who was there and how the progress went. So too strict and planned approach will IME indeed restrict your teaching. But, and a big but, this guy wants to promise his students to feel and use their qi, in some way that he refuses to explain what he means, and in order to have guaranties like this, he needs to have a very strict and thought out plan, a structured way to teach them so they surely believe that they can use their qi in 6 months. :P
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby cloudz on Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:36 am

that's the thing.. you don't know who's going to walk in, what are their strengths and or weaknesses, what their rate of progress will be. You don't know how much they will be practicing and so on. Why sit and write the future for them, just give them what they need to progress, when they need it (are ready).
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:35 am

cloudz wrote:that's the thing.. you don't know who's going to walk in, what are their strengths and or weaknesses, what their rate of progress will be. You don't know how much they will be practicing and so on. Why sit and write the future for them, just give them what they need to progress, when they need it (are ready).



Exactly 8-)

...But a guarantee that you can use qi after 6 months is still a very good selling point. ;)
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Appledog on Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:08 am

Bao wrote:The few years I've had my own group and taught people, I found out that your more intuitive approach worked much better than what I had thought I was going to teach and how I had planned. Quite fast after trying to be a teacher, I abandoned my plans and started to improvise each and every class. Everything went much better this way. I could adjust my classes to who was there and how the progress went. So too strict and planned approach will IME indeed restrict your teaching. But, and a big but, this guy wants to promise his students to feel and use their qi, in some way that he refuses to explain what he means, and in order to have guaranties like this, he needs to have a very strict and thought out plan, a structured way to teach them so they surely believe that they can use their qi in 6 months. :P


Thanks for your input. If you had written that first and nothing else on this thread we would be cool. As it stands I don't think we're cool -- at least, you don't really act like it. Responding properly to a question like this takes over an hour of thought and typing. I guess all I am saying is, please, make yourself worth the effort, treat people seriously and don't try to play along with the other trolls. And, ultimately, if I am full of shit, it's a money back guarantee so what did (you) lose anyways? I am taking most of the risk on that. The proof would then be in the pudding and not in any kind of explanation I could offer to you. Anyways...

When a student walks into a usual tai chi school they are taught the form, usually very early on, and then begin a process of corrections that can last years. During this time they become indebted to and learn to rely on their teacher for everything. The position of the back foot, the way the arm opens up in single whip, the way peng is performed, the application of opening of tai chi, the way in which the hand is held in repulse monkey, whether or not to turn or weight the front leg and by how much in brush knee -- I can go on. The point of all this is that the student never learns to own their own form. They are given an endless set of corrections by the teacher. Most of which the teacher just makes up because he doesn't really know (he doesn't have the informer on his side). If the student ever wakes up and feels their qi for real their only option is to leave such a school and find a better one. Often this is impossible and the student has to start over, since they have discovered the informer, the energy flow, and need proper instruction, the kind they did not get originally. This is a huge problem for students, wastes years and years of a student's time.

I liken it to an English student in cram school who somehow against the odds (raw dedication?) gets to the point of learning tone and inflection to convey meaning. They start sounding kind of crazy as they try to imitate (and fail) the proper tone of voice when speaking English. A student in this unenviable position can no longer learn anything from a cram school and must get private instruction from a native speaker experienced in correcting that before it causes permanent damage to their ability.

So the trick is to get the student to understand the driving force of each move in an intuitive way. This is done by using various forms of qi. When the student gets the proper sensations of qi, instruction will proceed by instructing the student how to move that energy so the student can transition in various ways without having to receive a massive list of corrections. Initially the student will feel that he does not know in which direction the qi should flow to complete the move, but ideally once he starts it moving the move will occur spontaneously. More experienced students will feel it more like an ironing out of their form, or perhaps like they have fallen onto railway tracks (as a train might). It is imperative that this be done by someone who really knows what they are doing so that the move is on-axis with various kinds of chi flow.

In the end however....

This is panning out to be more of a kind of "assistance qigong" or merely a teaching method (order of introduction of progression exercises) and not an entirely new style of Tai Chi. Actually I am not really interested in creating an entirely new style of Tai Chi if I don't have to. There is already too much cool stuff going on in the main styles. Ultimately I am not even going to need to invent any of the special exercises, just collect them together in one place. I think ultimately what I am really trying to do is just find a way to help people get in the door of whatever they are doing in tai chi, to help them complete their goals, whatever they might be, and if not (if they fail) then it would not for a lack of proper instruction.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Bao on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:03 am

Appledog wrote:
Thanks for your input. If you had written that first and nothing else on this thread we would be cool. As it stands I don't think we're cool -- at least, you don't really act like it. Responding properly to a question like this takes over an hour of thought and typing. I guess all I am saying is, please, make yourself worth the effort, treat people seriously and don't try to play along with the other trolls.


You are correct. Another reaction from my part and more thought before posting would have been appropriate. I am still not perfectly sure about your intention. The first post had the troll stamp all over it. And I don"t think that you have given answer to all questions. But sometimes I can write a bit provocative as well, sometimes just to ensure I get some answers. Anyway, your further replies indicate that you have a more serious intention than I thought....

When a student walks into a usual tai chi school they are taught the form, usually very early on, and then begin a process of corrections that can last years. During this time they become indebted to and learn to rely on their teacher for everything. The position of the back foot, the way the arm opens up in single whip, the way peng is performed, the application of opening of tai chi, the way in which the hand is held in repulse monkey, whether or not to turn or weight the front leg and by how much in brush knee -- I can go on. The point of all this is that the student never learns to own their own form. They are given an endless set of corrections by the teacher. Most of which the teacher just makes up because he doesn't really know (he doesn't have the informer on his side).


I do agree that many don't get to the point where they own their form or their Tai Chi. Some people reach it earlier, some people later. But I do believe that the practitioner must take responsible as well, be critical, think and explore by themselves the truth or non-truth in what they are taught. I stopped to respect most of my old teachers a long time ago. At least the ones who speak a lot of BS regardless how good they are...

But I don't teach the same way as many others. I've taught forms earlier, but I don't really believe in it anymore. Not as a main part or early part at least. IMO, it's better to teach individual postures, drills and transitions and to explore the possibilities of movement first.

Interesting answer. Thank you for elaborating your thoughts, I appreciate it. 8-)
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Steve James on Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:33 pm

There's a difference between individual expression and creating a new style. Two people can say they are doing the same style, but they will express it in their own way. It's the same for driving.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby windwalker on Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:30 pm

Right now I am working on chin to toe, splits, and the bridge as being core requirements at the white belt level. Do you think this is too extreme?


Can you do any of this?
Is it a requirement in order to do some other type of skill.
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Re: New style of Tai Chi

Postby Appledog on Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:48 pm

windwalker wrote:
Right now I am working on chin to toe, splits, and the bridge as being core requirements at the white belt level. Do you think this is too extreme?


Can you do any of this?
Is it a requirement in order to do some other type of skill.


I used to be able to do them and I'm confident I can get back into it quickly. At least I seem to be making progress again this time so time will tell.

As you mention there are skills which are facilitated by these exercises -- I did not choose them at random. But ultimately I am of the experience that they are not a requirement for doing tai chi. Explaining why is a little difficult, and in the end we both might not know what the other person is talking about. Actually, I don't know which particular skills you are referring to. But no the choice is not entirely random. And actually I am willing to bet the skills I am talking about are not the skills you are talking about either. I don't mean to imply I know something you don't, don't worry, the skills I am talking about are lesser skills for sure :) But I am hoping they lead me in the direction of the skills you might be (probably are) talking about -- if I'm right this time.
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