Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Niall Keane on Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:53 pm

Bao wrote:
The "fast form" is almost identicle to the "slow" form.


Well... slow form practice might have been developed in conjunction with ding shi form practice, and not really as a separate form per se. But the normal speed might have been faster in the old days as seen in the 37s vid. If you look at Wu/Hao and Sun styles for instance, the regular speed of form practice is not particularly slow.


I suspect as much. Like, the curriculum in Tai Chi Chuan is vast... I've always felt under pressure to get as much done as possible, it makes sense not to take the piss going ultra-slow for no good reason. The jibigung and nei gung can be used to examine issues where movements can be repeated hundreds of times, a form is useless at that unless you do it ten times in a row, and if someone is foolish enough to do that rather than spending the time on gung and conditioning and partner training... well....
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Trick on Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:49 am

Niall Keane wrote:No one disputes that Yang Lu Chan learned from Chen Changxing. The yang derived traditions say that he learned from Chang Fa who learned from Wang zung yue...

It is said that Chen changxing was a disgrace to the village because he was defeated by Chang Fa and went on to learn and teach his art "inside the door". I'm sure I don't need to repeat the story of Chang Fa looking and laughing at Chen teaching the village pao chui.... being caught doing so and turning to leave where Chen chases after him only to be effortlessly thrown down then begging to be taught.
.


Chang fa=Jiang Fa?. On Wikipedia it says "蔣發 Jiǎng Fā; 1574–1655 with Chen Wangting (1771–1853) transformed the Chen family boxing. Elsewhere put Chen wanting's dates to the seemingly more correct (陈王庭; 1580–1660), and the 1771-1853 seem to be the dates of Chen Changxing which correlates with Yang Lu-ch'an(1799–1872) but not with Jiang Fa(Chang Fa?) ?
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Niall Keane on Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:06 am

Trick wrote:
Niall Keane wrote:No one disputes that Yang Lu Chan learned from Chen Changxing. The yang derived traditions say that he learned from Chang Fa who learned from Wang zung yue...

It is said that Chen changxing was a disgrace to the village because he was defeated by Chang Fa and went on to learn and teach his art "inside the door". I'm sure I don't need to repeat the story of Chang Fa looking and laughing at Chen teaching the village pao chui.... being caught doing so and turning to leave where Chen chases after him only to be effortlessly thrown down then begging to be taught.
.


Chang fa=Jiang Fa?. On Wikipedia it says "蔣發 Jiǎng Fā; 1574–1655 with Chen Wangting (1771–1853) transformed the Chen family boxing. Elsewhere put Chen wanting's dates to the seemingly more correct (陈王庭; 1580–1660), and the 1771-1853 seem to be the dates of Chen Changxing which correlates with Yang Lu-ch'an(1799–1872) but not with Jiang Fa(Chang Fa?) ?


indeed the one and same... yea the Chens have Jiang Fa learning from Chen Wang-ting, but all the Yang schools, except Wu Yu-xiang have Wang Lan-ting teaching Jiang Fa who tought Chen Chang-xing. Wu Tu-nan tells us that along with Chen Xin (who through Tang Hao we have evidence he was suppressing "rumours" among Chen villagers that Jiang Fa taught Chen Chang-xing) he also met Du Yu-wen wo confirmed that Chen Tai Chi Chuan came from Jiang Fa from Kaifeng in Henan provence, Wu went on to say that the styles and sequence of the form practiced by Du was identicle to those taught by Yang Lu-chan.
We know that Wang Zong-yue was supposed to have been in Kaifeng in 1795 working as a teacher and scholar from the preface to the Yin Fu Spear Chronicle...
We know that Yang Lu Chan learned around 1820 from Chen Chang-xing. The geography of the locations and the time-frame would lend credence to the historical tradition of the Yang Lu-chan lineages.
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby willie on Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:23 am

Niall Keane wrote: a form is useless at that unless you do it ten times in a row, and if someone is foolish enough to do that rather than spending the time on gung and conditioning and partner training... well....


The problem with this is that, The form breaks down and all movements become useless.
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby amor on Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:25 pm

willie wrote:
Niall Keane wrote: a form is useless at that unless you do it ten times in a row, and if someone is foolish enough to do that rather than spending the time on gung and conditioning and partner training... well....


The problem with this is that, The form breaks down and all movements become useless.


I agree with Neil that "gung work" can be a better replacement to form but because they are not as repetitive it means more work has to be done particularly with respect to the old adage to pay attention. You must pay attention to everything inside and focus on your alignments. relaxation is also very important in gung work but there is such a thing as too much relaxation - its not a good thing. But you can never have enough good alignments especially when it comes to clearing out blockages. So what is the purpose of gung work, I believe its clearing out the meridians and strengthening the front lines of the body so that the back can release. You might have aspects of the front line such as on side that may be tight but these just get overused in my experience due to the tightness of the back meridians. But its the back meridians we want to clear out by really pulling down on the front and getting as much twisting on the fascia as possible, in the right way
Last edited by amor on Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby wayne hansen on Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:14 pm

Too much relaxation ..?
Haven't met him yet
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Niall Keane on Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:46 am

In the system I practice we have several types of gung training...

From a practical / martial viewpoint these can be viewed as developing different skillsets and attributes necessary for fighting:

jibigung methods, which deal with training basic coordination, chi being the "flow of yin and yang" so the coordination and balance of up and down, left and right, coiling and uncoiling etc... so one may have "single sweep lotus leg" and carry out 41-111 repetitions. This drill "trains" how to coordinate the opposite movements of the hips and waist, as required in sweeping an opponent. Beginners struggle, more advanced work in sinking and raising, and advanced work in cai lang methods. These methods focus on common, somewhat singular and simple movements within the styles delivery of technique.

We have "nei gung" methods, such as "Jade Rabbit Gazes at Moon" ... now, with nei gung we are into "recovery with power", which is related to "borrow but give nothing to borrow" So in this particular one of the 24 one begins by dragging upwards and the legs and core (dantian if yon like) does the work. at the limit there is a shake (in towards the body, the opposite of a typically demonstrated fajin, a dragging (yin) shock to the opponent (something I have never witnessed in other styles) a really useful skill in shuai jiao and chin na applications. At that point one has reached a "completion" of movement in a certain direction, so the perfect recovery, which itself is power that uses the exhausted previous position for its potential power begins... there's a slight crouching in the torso and a drag down into the core as the hands drop along the forward centre line (we have just lifted out opponent and so uprooted him and now we are smashing him down...) at the end of this "drop" there is a "tearing" separation to the left and right, generated from the closed torso / core / condensed dantian, now opening and expanding.. this revolves upwards along the side centrelines the hands ot chest height, to another "limit" and again uses a limit as the crest of a wave to revolve internally and crash back down and send the hands out in a push / strike. At that limit the process begins again - the upward drag using the pushes limit to generate maximum power...
Now that's martial nei gung... training the body to use and recycle power endlessly... like the great river, surging and flowing without interruption... Such nei gung exercises are practiced 41-360 times each. (you can understand how this develops the practitioners ability to use nei jin fast)
Once we know this, once we understand how to recover with the "appropriate "power and have some options on this, combined with the technique training we can wrestle and spar and have "options" once we connect with the opponent, the second level grows form the understanding of ourselves and the "feeling" of limits, to be able to fell and understand them instantly in the opponent and so exploit them, making "our" technique xuan xuan, followed by third level "dissolving the self and embracing the one", being instantly aware of our environment and using it too, in the same fashion...

Other gung / conditioning methods include:

rolling thunder punching with 2kg weights in the hands for 20 minuters at a rate of 180 punches a minute (speed and endurance and twisting rotations in strikes, and guard position during strike)
rolling thunder on pads for 3x3 minutes (as above with impact - the puncher tries to drive back the pad man, the pad man trains absorption (useful for his own guard) and tried to remain put and in balance with his pad hand held out)
running rolling thunder on pads as the pad man runs back, stops, forward etc. with no rhythm to his changes, developing awareness, timing, angle and range

rolls on a mat back and forth 80plus over two minutes three times (trains how to "fall" and recover back to ones feet, and conditionins the back of the body to receive force.)

handstands on fists for 2 minutes (we now know through scientific explorations that "standing / placing weight on the bones thickens them and makes them stronger.... so this Tai Chi Chuan method of arm conditioning far exceeds the micro-fracture arm-hitting that can create localized patches of strong and weak bone and can lead to long-term damage to limbs. )

sanshou drills like:
Gyrating arms - training the practical usage of Wu Style Reeling Silk skill
Five Element Fist - training how to use one hand to defend and counter
Flying FLower Palm - Training combinations and how to follow strikes with stuff like yin and yang palms recycling from each other.
rolling thunder drill - punch aand forearm shielding
stroke the lute drill - retreat in order to advance, cat-stances, adding in angle, adding in horizontal chops and vertical rolling thunder punches...

and on and on....

When I say it is better to practice gung and conditioning methods rather than hand form 10 times, this is what I mean.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand which would give you nei jia "fighting ability"?
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Aug 17, 2017 2:33 am

How much of what you practice comes from CTH and how much was added later
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Niall Keane on Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:27 am

wayne hansen wrote:How much of what you practice comes from CTH and how much was added later


all of it bar a few drills I've developed myself combining say rolling thunder and single sweep lotus leg kick on thai pads, five element on pads moving, with switching leads, and an element of Embrace Tiger's Head, golden cockerel leading to gyrating arms on pads... just some stuff I found linked together well against opponents... so taking whats there and offering my own bit of evolution to the style or devolution ... time will tell?

All the drills previously posted are CTH, much of them even on video from late 50's early 60's. (I've added stops and starts and forward and back to the running rolling thunder on pads... to train awareness and position)

There are of course little tricks of my own I've added in to techniques, still practicing the original method but just added another spice to the existing flavor.

Every generation adds their own bit no doubt, like Dan tells me it was his sparring partner Tong Chi-kin who changed seven-stars tuishou a bit... originally (and still practiced that way too) it was 7 steps forward and back, Tong made it 4 forward and 3 back or for the partner 4 back and 3 forward, and people switch as "edges" appear... so it trains the seven stars strike and footwork and guard but alternates the starting leg and so makes it more about "ting jin" and less likely to space out into a rhythm.... a good yet simple evolution?
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:10 pm

Thanks for that
I realise things get refined over time
In the yang style walking pushing hands there are two stepping patterns 3/3 and 3/2 so he may have seen those being done and realised their value
Because the CTH system I learned was from someone who spoke English well I didn't get the names with the exercises
He would just say this drill for use this one
Last edited by wayne hansen on Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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