Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:57 am

Trick wrote:
Niall Keane wrote:
We can call accept that Yang Lu Chan is the “Royce Gracie” figure-head of Tai Chi Chuan. It was his achievements in “challenges” (Lei Tai, full-contact it is assumed and not tiddlywinks) that earned him the name “the invincible”. It was a court scholar Ong Tong who first coined the name “Tai Chi Chuan” after witnessing one of Yang's bouts:


“Hands Holding Taiji shakes the whole world, a chest containing ultimate skill defeats a gathering of heroes

.

Now I have learned and still practice YTJQ in the linages of Fu Zhongwen and Li Yaxuan and enjoy the practice very much, so I'm not to diss YTJQ at all. But what/where are the solid records of Yang Luchan's many challenges? What other historically well known fighters/warriors did he defeat? I'm thinking about for example such a historical famous fighter/duellist as Miamoto Musashi where the records seem legit that he duelled against other famous warriors, but that might be that they are better at keeping records in Japan. But the record how Yang Luchan's gong fu got its name seem to be well known to some point, in another post here it was stated the Taijiquan name came about after a scholar(probably well versed in poetry) witnessed an "demonstration" done by Yang Luchan- not an actually fight?


I've underlined above the part of the quote attributed to that poet Ong Tong which does mention "defeating a gathering of heroes".
Yang arrived in Beijing in 1852 according to most sources. that would make him 53 years old. We have all, no doubt heard the legends... about ta "certain eunuch" implying Dong Haichuan, and how Yang fought him to a draw? And of course the rumor in Tai Chi circles is that he fought him to a draw so as not to upset the "politically-connected" Eunuch and that this was a tougher feat than defeating him? (Nice story. ;-) )
We have heard legends about his son Banhou, also known as an accomplished fighter sharing his fathers monkier (unbeatable / invincible). Some stories exist about Yang the elder killing a Shaolin monk and so necessitating his evacuation to Beijing by Wu Xu-xiang and his brother... and there doesn't seem to be much contact after that point between the Wus and Yangs. We hear of anecdotes about Ban hou and how he taught his son "now you will hear the swallow sing" and sliced through his opponent's trachea... and there's the one about him bing ambushed by martial artists but throwing them all into a canal...

The only documented fight I can find in earliest Tai Chi Chuan is between Wu Jian Chuan and Wan Lai-sheng, Wu seeking hium out and defeating him to avenge Yang Cheng-fu's defeat, despite Wu being over 20 years older than Yang at the time.

Is it much different for the Chens? some myths about erecting a lei tai and taking on all-comers?

The time doesn't seem to have recorded these exploits, certainly not like Miamoto Musashi's duels in Japan. But then again until smart phones most modern Sanda fights have left no traces, I recently had one of my own (among a British Open) posted up on the Practical Tai Chi Chuan facebook page. That fight occurred in 2003 and I had but vague memory of it left... So... perhaps "documentation" also reflects the "record-keeping" of the organizers?

It would seem logical though, that Yang Lu chan walked the walk, given the reputations of many of Yang Lu Chan's students as fighters, some being bannermen (Ling Shan, Quan You ansd Wan Chun), some members of the household of Prince Duan (himself an organizer of the Boxing Rebellion and martial arts enthusiast) - Wang Lan-ting and Li Rui-dong (who trained together... It is rumored that on Lu Chan's funeral, Wang accompanied the body home with Banhou. The stopped for the night i a tavern and got to pushing hands / wrestling where Wang soundly defeated Yang again and again. Yang is supposed to have struck out aiming to seriously injure Wang, who swore to have nothing more to do with the Yang family art and not to teach it... here Li Ru-dong comes in to the picture, sometime later, seeking out a master who might defeat him and he could learn form. He challenges Wang and loses baddy.. at which point Wang states his oath not to teach, and so Li comes up with a "cunning plan" and so presents himself as the figurehead of their school and so absolves Wang of his oath allowing him to teach. )

History....... HISTORY......... HIS STORY!


There used to be a story about how Wu Kung-yi could fight... and then a video resurfaced on the net....
(looking at the Wu's Gold Book one can see the dramatic difference between Wu Jian Chuan and Wu Kung-yi in form... yes, form says nothing about fighting... these days...
But once it was a valued way to assess skill. I believe because once it formed only a minor part of the Tai Chi Chuan system as it still does in the more pugilistic schools. One could infer that if a form was well done the time and effort in the more practical areas must have been put in... these days such an assessment would be a grave mistake... where form is mere window-dressing. Of course there is also the diffeence between what a fighter migth view as good form and what "trained judges" who never fought might judge to be good form.)

So I take your point, given the very sad state of affairs in most Tai Chi Chuan schools regarding practical application one must logically question if there was anything there to begin with? I think there was, I think schools like my own offer the validation of the method, but our focus is on the gung and conditioning methods of Tai Chi Chuan and as these are mostly lost nowadays and so the bizarre situation arises where those with no fighting skill convince themselves and others that the real is fake and the fake is real... Confusion abounds!
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Trick on Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:26 am

Thanks Niall, very interesting
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby robert on Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:31 pm

Niall Keane wrote:Now, I do believe that Chen Style TaI Chi Chuan is nei jia chuan and is tai chi chuan (albeit with additional techniques from their family pao chui Shaolin system.)

I don't know what this pao chui Shaolin system is you're referring to. In Chen taiji there are two empty hand forms in laojia or xinjia. There are Yilu and Erlu. Yilu is the first form or path and Erlu is the second form or path and Erlu is also called pao chui (cannon fist). The first form is used to train neijin and traditionally is done slowly. Once you're relaxed and can do fajin you can fajin as well. The second form has fajin in it and it should be expressed in the form and it trains neijin as well, but at speed. Erlu takes you a step closer to sparring/fighting with neijin.

Chen Xiaoxing Laojia Yilu


Chen Xiaoxing Laojia Erlu



Niall Keane wrote:my own belief is that no origin theory can be proved due to lack of evidence, but that certainly some can be disproved. The Chen origin theory is one such that can certainly have elements disproved and the rest made uncertain, with no more credence than the Chang San Feng Origin Theory. Though for this post I will be focusing on the Chen Origin myth..

I'm not that interested in the origin stories, I accept what the historians say, I would rather practice taiji than study history, although I like the old stories. People can research it and decide for themselves. My interest is in the body mechanics; I've studied Yang, Wu, and Chen styles as well as some xingyi and bagua. The basic body mechanics seem pretty similar to me. I don't teach and I'm not promoting any particular style - I think all the IMAs have something interesting to offer. The principles in the main styles of taiji are the same and that is what interests me.
Last edited by robert on Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Appledog on Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:29 pm

Unfortunately Niall you just don't have the credibility to say what you are saying. This goes beyond you being a disciple of Dan Docherty -- you're contradicting too many people here who have similar or greater credentials. When I look around at what other masters say, they all say the diametric opposite of what you are saying. Ma Yue-Liang said that the Wu style fast form has jumping kicks and stamping movements like Chen style. And on more than one occasion I have overheard that the Yangs preserved yi lu and er lu for generations after Yang Lu-Chan as well. Chen Pan-Ling said it was indisputable that Tai Chi came from the Chens. T.T. Liang studied from over 15 different masters across Chen, Yang and other styles. Salvatore C's research shows that Tai Chi is based on shaolin hong quan, tongbei quan, and longfist. The derivative style Sun style takes from Chen style as well as Wu and Yang style. None of these people noticed any difference which prevented them from studying under different styles. I could go on, but ultimately I can tell you from personal experience that the energy flow and construction of the sets (Chen, Yang, Wu, Sun) are all exactly the same. How do you explain that? I'm deluded?

I get what you are saying. Wu style wasn't transmitted properly to Wu Kung-I, the gatekeeper of the style. One wonders what you have to say about 'ol Eddie (go ahead, I'm interested). Yang style basically died with Yang Cheng-Fu. Okay. Sun style is a joke, and Chen style doesn't exist. So I guess we should all go and learn Cheng style?

Come on Niall, Tai Chi is not a particularly complex system, once you strip things down to the fundamentals it's really surprising how few people seem to pick up on what you are supposed to be doing in Tai Chi. I mean it is one thing to talk about martial ability, lineage, tradition, advanced applications (dian xue, etc) but what's the point of any of that if you can't even get your foot in the door? And all styles can do that with relative ease -- yet so few people seem to go through that door. I think that before you go off on any particular style and start saying so many negative things about past masters, you should do a little more research. It would be different if you had a strong source for what you are saying -- but you don't -- and no one is saying people deserve respect just because they are dead. But people like Chen Fa Ke, when you go off on people like that, there are lots of people alive today who studied with students of his, and some of his students (like Feng) were giants. If any of what you are saying is true it would have come out and been well-known decades ago. Someone like Feng does not "get fooled" by someone like Chen Fa-Ke. You are suggesting that all these people, Gu Liu-Xin, etc. are all idiots who knew nothing.

Maybe you're right but when you place all those people on the scale and yourself on the other side, it's really difficult to believe you just because you said so.

Take the story about Eddie Wu saying CTH was the gatekeeper of the Wu Style. This is an unbelievably strange thing to say in the first place, for many reasons -- first, Eddie Wu is below CTH in terms of generation IIRC. Secondly there are many other Wu family members who could take the mantle besides Wu Kong-I. Why give it to CTH even if he was the best wu player in the world Certainly Ma Yue-Liang was a more viable canidate, especially since he married into the family? It seems like there's something more to this story. If you asked Eddie Wu today about what he said back then, what do you think his explanation would be? I'm sure this question has been posed before but I can't seem to find it. Please tell us all, for our elucidation, why CTH was never made the official gatekeeper -- a role he would have had to accept and sign off on before Eddie Wu would ever have said such a thing. I mean you don't just say someone is the gatekeeper of an entire style without them being aware of it, right? There must be more to this story than what you have said.

Can you recommend any reliable source of information for a complete history of what happened in the 30s to 80s with Tai Chi's transmission?
Last edited by Appledog on Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:35 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Trick on Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:51 pm

Appledog wrote:Can you recommend any reliable source of information for a complete history of what happened in the 30s to 80s with Tai Chi's transmission?

Maybe for example Taijiquan enthusiasts that managed to escape from Mao's China thought China will be closed for a long long time and saw an opportunity in that
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Trick on Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:13 am

Appledog wrote:Ma Yue-Liang said that the Wu style fast form has jumping kicks and stamping movements like Chen style. And on more than one occasion I have overheard that the Yangs preserved yi lu and er lu for generations after Yang Lu-Chan as well.

Yes, I have seen in Handan Yang Taijiquan practitioners doing jump kicks, low spinning leg sweeping moves claimed to bee part of YTJQ and looking very Shaolin/long fist like. One of my Yang Taiji teachers(student of Fu Zhongwen) confirmed the jump kicking thing, and on one occasion mentioned about 'another' form
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Niall Keane on Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:43 am

Trick wrote:
Appledog wrote:Ma Yue-Liang said that the Wu style fast form has jumping kicks and stamping movements like Chen style. And on more than one occasion I have overheard that the Yangs preserved yi lu and er lu for generations after Yang Lu-Chan as well.

Yes, I have seen in Handan Yang Taijiquan practitioners doing jump kicks, low spinning leg sweeping moves claimed to bee part of YTJQ and looking very Shaolin/long fist like. One of my Yang Taiji teachers(student of Fu Zhongwen) confirmed the jump kicking thing, and on one occasion mentioned about 'another' form


They are in the weapon forms... which are practiced at speed. only the hand form is TAUGHT at a very slow speed. When I have new students following me, my long form takes 20 minutes, when I'm solo-training and usually doing form to warm down, it takes about 4 minutes, of varying speeds and tempos... as it should.

Fast forms are a recent invention. (Even Ma's) The Yang's had none until recently but the family themselves do have a pao chui form (not like Chens) and they also practice the WU YU-xiang form. (strange that the master's family practice the student's form, but there you have it. ) The Yang's private practice involves three repetitions of long form wearing lead-weighted suits, the form taking them 10 minutes to perform. The Yangs practice their form with jumping kicks!!! (all relayed to Dan Docherty by Cordyline Batz in Yongnian in 1997)

Take the story about Eddie Wu saying CTH was the gatekeeper of the Wu Style. This is an unbelievably strange thing to say in the first place, for many reasons -- first, Eddie Wu is below CTH in terms of generation IIRC. Secondly there are many other Wu family members who could take the mantle besides Wu Kong-I.


(Apple)

Apple,
you're picking me up wrong, as far as I know it was after the death of Kung-Yi, while his brother resided at the Laogai. Eddie is quoted in an interview with Kung Fu Magazine 1980... I'm fairly sure Eddie, albeit the next generation, might know about his family's art's transmission?

I'm not basing any of my counter-theories on "my opinion", by the way, I've given dates and named names... I've never commented negatively on Chen Nei Jia skills, quite the opposite, I criticised the Yangs for not involving themselves in Combat sports for generations now and admired the direction the Chen's are taking. BUTI am challenging their origin myth as it is full of holes as I have highlighted. And surely you don't equate martial ability with honesty? Aren't you challenging mine??? haha!!! So why not Chen Fake? Is it beyond belief that a Chinese (all about "face") lad with a family martial arts business, who is expanding it regionally would not come up with the "we are the original" slogan? How many " the real original" styles are there in Villages all over China? Wasn't that lad who ascribes Tai Chi to mime dancing introducing yet another "source" in his book recently... FFS!!!! it's a genetic disorder with them over there to make up bullshit about being the original!

I feel I have to once again correct you, I have not said that Tai Chi Chuan didn't come via the Chens. Chen Chang-xing taught Yang Lu-chan fact!!! Who taught him "Tai Chi Chuan" though is debatable, very, very debatable!!!
I've also already answered about the village then adopting Tai Chi Chuan, and even about Xu-Yu-xiang and Wang Lan-ting and their learning form Chens. Please re-read if you missed it.

I have overheard that the Yangs preserved yi lu and er lu for generations after Yang Lu-Chan as well.


This is nonsense! far too many styles come form first and second generation Yang and none of them nor Yang styles mention yi lu and er lu.

As for Eddie, I believe he's back in Hong Kong and the last time I saw him coach was on that Kung Fu show where those two lads travel around highlighting famous styles and sparring with them. Eddie was training his lads up on a leitai and they did well, fair play to him! I don't know anything about his father, his grandfather Kung Yi seems to have let the side down, his great grandfather Jian Chuan was an admirable and respected fighter, his grand uncle Kung-Cho seems to have known the business, unfortunate that he was locked away for so long!!! Eddie seems to be restoring the family honor!

The Chens are back seeking to kick ass, well done!!! The Yang's still focus on form performances? Some of the off-shoots seem to be getting their shit together once again.

It was a very lonely place for martial tai chi in the mid-late 20th century (seeing as you asked about transmission back then), that's why despite Wu and Yang "gate-keepers" residing in Hong Kong at the time the local journalists identified Cheng Tin-hung's school as "Practical" Tai Chi Chuan... says it all really?

And no, I'm not suggesting that we have the real, real, real, original, pure, shiny, tai chi chuan either... first there are plenty in the school who couldn't kick show off a rope, but also the other styles seem to be well capable of delivering results too.... WHEN THEY CHOSE TO FOCUS ON BEING A MARTIAL ART and not a boxercise system for old and sick people.

I do think all gardens need to be weeded though, and some, more so than others, having let it get out of hand entirely.





(See, I keep my Tai Chi Chuan garden weed free, but some of my neighbours seem to mistake weeds for pretty flowers, and the wind catches their cultivated ignorance and so spreads the weeds over in my direction so I have to work twice as hard to keep the weedy out and to convince others my garden isn't a thorny mess, that's not worth the effort visiting. So when I cast a few words or challenge some folklore, I'm really spraying a bit of weedkiller in the wind... in the direction of the neighbours' gardens, see sometimes they are so overgrown they block out the sun from mine, and who knows they might even catch on, and buy a few drums of weedkiller themselves? )
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby edededed on Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:33 am

Many taiji styles have a fast form, or a fast frame (sometimes more than one) - from Chen to Yang to Wu to Huleijia.
Why not believe in their authenticity?
Seems like a natural progression for taiji skill.

It has always been a habit for CMA to "hold something back" - bagua, xingyi, etc. all did it, too.

As for Miyamoto Musashi - I don't think that his accounts are any more reliable...
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Bao on Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:02 am

Niall Keane wrote: Fast forms are a recent invention. (Even Ma's) The Yang's had none until recently but the family themselves do have a pao chui form (not like Chens) and they also practice the WU YU-xiang form. (strange that the master's family practice the student's form, but there you have it. ) The Yang's private practice involves three repetitions of long form wearing lead-weighted suits, the form taking them 10 minutes to perform. The Yangs practice their form with jumping kicks!!! (all relayed to Dan Docherty by Cordyline Batz in Yongnian in 1997)


... ???

Ma Yueliang said quite the opposite in an interview, that the fast form was the original and that the slow form came later just because the Yang Style had a slow form. He was only taught the fast form when he was young.

http://www.martialtalk.com/threads/df-q ... ang.69195/

Could you please tell us of the history of the evolution of Taijiquan as he you have witnessed it this century?
"Before Yang Cheng-Fu and Wu Jianquan", he stated clearly, "the slow form did not exist. Yang Lu-Chan learnt the Fast Form from the Chen family and it was passed through Yang Cheng-Fu's father and uncle to Yang Cheng-Fu. It was passed through Wu Jianquan's father to Wu Jianquan. This is not the same as the present Chen Style form which is a mixture of Taiji and Chen family style Gongfu. Together Yang Cheng-Fu and Wu Jianquan created each their own Slow Form from their understanding of the Taiji principles.


Please tell us about the origins of the Fast Form?
The Fast form was unashamedly for fighting but the new slow forms had a greater emphasis on health and self cultivation". Master Ma said that he saw Yang Cheng-Fu come regularly to the house of his father-in-law Wu Jianquan - which was where Master Ma was also living - and saw these two old legendary masters practicing together. Many times he saw Yang Cheng-Fu practicing the Fast Form but to Master Ma's knowledge Yang taught it to nobody. "The Yang Fast Form died with Yang Cheng-Fu" he said. Yang Cheng-Fu's older brother taught only the Fast Form as he had received it from his father, but he took few pupils and the line did not survive. Wu Jianquan continued to teach both the Slow and the Fast Forms, though the Fast Form was generally reserved for `inside the door' disciples. Many branches of the Wu style have lost their Fast Form according to Master Ma.







you're picking me up wrong, as far as I know it was after the death of Kung-Yi, while his brother resided at the Laogai. Eddie is quoted in an interview with Kung Fu Magazine 1980... I'm fairly sure Eddie, albeit the next generation, might know about his family's art's transmission?


Maybe this interview makes it clearer?

Eddie speaks about the transmission to HK. One interesting part might be that he says that Ma's style was "semi-hard".

https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/t ... -eddie-wu/

The Wu Family moved from Hong Kong to Canada in the late 1970’s where they soon established a training school to continue to the family business of teaching traditional tai chi chuan. Wu Kwong Yu, who had been training as an engineer, was also asked to come to Canada and support the continuing education of the family system. Through time he became the official head of the Wu Family Tai Chi Chuan Academy.

Interviewer: In Germany and Holland there are the schools of Ma Jing Bao, who, as you’ll know, is the son of Ma Yeuh Liang and Wu Jin Hua, the daughter of Wu Chien Chuan. However, what they do seems different from what you are doing[/b].

Eddie: This is family history and you can quote me on it. Ma Jing Bao’s father, Ma Yeuh Liang, who was my grand-uncle, married Wu Chien Chuan’s daughter, Wu Yin Hua. Ma Yeuh Liang learned a hard style before he met his wife. He then studied for a number of years with my grandfather, Wu Chien Chuan, who then passed away. From this point Ma Yeuh Liang had nobody to upgrade with. Wu Yin Hua did exactly what her father did but, as was the tradition in China, men came first. So she walked behind her husband and followed what he did. So then, as time passed, Ma Yeuh Liang merged his semi-hard style and Wu style forms together, which is the system that is now practised by Ma Jing Bao and his students. Now everybody has his or her areas of expertise but this is not the same system as the Wu family system. We have brought the direct lineage from my great-grandfather, grandfather and father to myself.

You can see in the 1995 video from the exhibition in Toronto where my aunt, my two sons, my sister and myself practised from the start of the form to the 450 push and everything was identical, without rehearsal. This is because we were all taught in the same way and this has been my job since 2004, when I moved from Hong Kong to continue the family tradition. It is my job to unify and maintain this system of tai chi for this generation and for the generations hereafter. There will be no watering down and everything will be kept clear. I’m very proud to be the 5th Generation holder of the Wu Family system with 150 years plus of education. It doesn’t always have to be of the highest standard but at least a clear method for precise teaching will be passed down to each generation.
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby willie on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:25 am

Niall Keane wrote:
The Yang derived inside the door tale of Jiang Fa is thus:

Jiang arrives at Chen Village to witness Chen Chang-xing coaching, and duly laughs at their efforts. Chen sees this and Jiang turns to leave. Chen chases after him and as he is about to seize him, Jiang throws him hard with little effort. Chen immediately recognises the superiority of his skill and kneels to plead to become Jiang's student. Jiang accepts Chen.


Wu stated that the forms “now” being practised in the Chen village were “revised” by Chen Fake. .


Very interesting reading Niall. You're a good writer.
There was a post made here about a year ago saying that, for a period of time, There was no taiji at Chen Village. So yes I believe that it was restored.

There's a lot of things that come to mind when reading your post.
Even if Jiang did teach Chen, it doesn't matter.
I know people who have trained in taiji for "3 plus" decades who "Do not have it"...
So my guess is that only a few people in the village actually possessed the true fighting skills and they might have decided to leave to become famous, much like Yang did.
This is just my guess, but I think that it makes at-least some sense?
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Niall Keane on Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:41 pm

willie wrote:...

Very interesting reading Niall. You're a good writer.
There was a post made here about a year ago saying that, for a period of time, There was no taiji at Chen Village. So yes I believe that it was restored.

...

So my guess is that only a few people in the village actually possessed the true fighting skills and they might have decided to leave to become famous, much like Yang did.
This is just my guess, but I think that it makes at-least some sense?


Thanks Willie,

Its a plausible idea for sure, although we don't have historical documents / interviews to back it up unlike say the craic about the origin theory and the shenanigans of Chen Fake. I have heard that lads from Xian came back to "help out" in the late 70's and one of them is on record stating that the whole "reeling silk" tuishou focus and methods are new from the early 1980's, hence they don't have them? (kinda like many a fast-form story)
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Niall Keane on Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:56 pm

Bao wrote:
you're picking me up wrong, as far as I know it was after the death of Kung-Yi, while his brother resided at the Laogai. Eddie is quoted in an interview with Kung Fu Magazine 1980... I'm fairly sure Eddie, albeit the next generation, might know about his family's art's transmission?


Maybe this interview makes it clearer?

Eddie speaks about the transmission to HK. One interesting part might be that he says that Ma's style was "semi-hard".

https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/t ... -eddie-wu/

The Wu Family moved from Hong Kong to Canada in the late 1970’s where they soon established a training school to continue to the family business of teaching traditional tai chi chuan. Wu Kwong Yu, who had been training as an engineer, was also asked to come to Canada and support the continuing education of the family system. Through time he became the official head of the Wu Family Tai Chi Chuan Academy.

Interviewer: In Germany and Holland there are the schools of Ma Jing Bao, who, as you’ll know, is the son of Ma Yeuh Liang and Wu Jin Hua, the daughter of Wu Chien Chuan. However, what they do seems different from what you are doing[/b].

Eddie: This is family history and you can quote me on it. Ma Jing Bao’s father, Ma Yeuh Liang, who was my grand-uncle, married Wu Chien Chuan’s daughter, Wu Yin Hua. Ma Yeuh Liang learned a hard style before he met his wife. He then studied for a number of years with my grandfather, Wu Chien Chuan, who then passed away. From this point Ma Yeuh Liang had nobody to upgrade with. Wu Yin Hua did exactly what her father did but, as was the tradition in China, men came first. So she walked behind her husband and followed what he did. So then, as time passed, Ma Yeuh Liang merged his semi-hard style and Wu style forms together, which is the system that is now practised by Ma Jing Bao and his students. Now everybody has his or her areas of expertise but this is not the same system as the Wu family system. We have brought the direct lineage from my great-grandfather, grandfather and father to myself.

You can see in the 1995 video from the exhibition in Toronto where my aunt, my two sons, my sister and myself practised from the start of the form to the 450 push and everything was identical, without rehearsal. This is because we were all taught in the same way and this has been my job since 2004, when I moved from Hong Kong to continue the family tradition. It is my job to unify and maintain this system of tai chi for this generation and for the generations hereafter. There will be no watering down and everything will be kept clear. I’m very proud to be the 5th Generation holder of the Wu Family system with 150 years plus of education. It doesn’t always have to be of the highest standard but at least a clear method for precise teaching will be passed down to each generation.


Well, Eddie seems to be on the right track again - martially, but he's being a dick here in this interview... that genetic affliction again about who has the really real, shiny, shiny original method... yawn!!!
It's totally preposterous to suggest that a woman knew the OG method from her father Wu Jian Chuan had decided to follow her man into error. They shared a bed ffs!!! She would have shared all the knowledge she had re. the style, and wouldn't have allowed Ma make a fool of himself on basics... the empty -force shit of later years is another thing altogether....
and the semi-hard shit??? What an impotent remark indeed? that old chestnut... he did a hard style first... Ah here! Fuck-sake, I hear that and respect evaporates. ( and I never trained anything other than Tai Chi Chuan, but I have been fortunate enough to cross hands with others who have and still manifest excellent nei jia skill.
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Niall Keane on Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:01 pm

Bao wrote:
Niall Keane wrote: Fast forms are a recent invention. (Even Ma's) The Yang's had none until recently but the family themselves do have a pao chui form (not like Chens) and they also practice the WU YU-xiang form. (strange that the master's family practice the student's form, but there you have it. ) The Yang's private practice involves three repetitions of long form wearing lead-weighted suits, the form taking them 10 minutes to perform. The Yangs practice their form with jumping kicks!!! (all relayed to Dan Docherty by Cordyline Batz in Yongnian in 1997)


... ???

Ma Yueliang said quite the opposite in an interview, that the fast form was the original and that the slow form came later just because the Yang Style had a slow form. He was only taught the fast form when he was young.

http://www.martialtalk.com/threads/df-q ... ang.69195/

Could you please tell us of the history of the evolution of Taijiquan as he you have witnessed it this century?
"Before Yang Cheng-Fu and Wu Jianquan", he stated clearly, "the slow form did not exist. Yang Lu-Chan learnt the Fast Form from the Chen family and it was passed through Yang Cheng-Fu's father and uncle to Yang Cheng-Fu. It was passed through Wu Jianquan's father to Wu Jianquan. This is not the same as the present Chen Style form which is a mixture of Taiji and Chen family style Gongfu. Together Yang Cheng-Fu and Wu Jianquan created each their own Slow Form from their understanding of the Taiji principles.


Please tell us about the origins of the Fast Form?
The Fast form was unashamedly for fighting but the new slow forms had a greater emphasis on health and self cultivation". Master Ma said that he saw Yang Cheng-Fu come regularly to the house of his father-in-law Wu Jianquan - which was where Master Ma was also living - and saw these two old legendary masters practicing together. Many times he saw Yang Cheng-Fu practicing the Fast Form but to Master Ma's knowledge Yang taught it to nobody. "The Yang Fast Form died with Yang Cheng-Fu" he said. Yang Cheng-Fu's older brother taught only the Fast Form as he had received it from his father, but he took few pupils and the line did not survive. Wu Jianquan continued to teach both the Slow and the Fast Forms, though the Fast Form was generally reserved for `inside the door' disciples. Many branches of the Wu style have lost their Fast Form according to Master Ma.









The "fast form" is almost identicle to the "slow" form. I spoke already about my own coaching taking 20 minutes and my personal practice taking 4 minutes... like, there's even a "square form" in Wu style, made by Wu Jian Chuan to teach large bodies of students... it breaks the form styles into three postures / sections each and outside of teaching large groups is fairly useless.

Ma tried to make a thing about his fast form... another this is the really real, real old, real tai chi chuan!

But Ma had nei gung sets, and "collected" one from Cheng Tin-hung via a student, although the Wu family has that too. Nei Gung is way more important than form in training nei jin. Ma would have known this...

Fast forms? much ado about nothing!
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Bao on Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:36 pm

The "fast form" is almost identicle to the "slow" form.


Well... slow form practice might have been developed in conjunction with ding shi form practice, and not really as a separate form per se. But the normal speed might have been faster in the old days as seen in the 37s vid. If you look at Wu/Hao and Sun styles for instance, the regular speed of form practice is not particularly slow.
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Re: Chen Fake`s father Chen Yanxi

Postby Niall Keane on Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:46 pm

Like, we have the science nowadays... whatever about a nei jia style of connecting the body and the chain of movement involved in issuing and receiving force... it still demands changes to the brain and movement patterns to be programmed. Combat will involve fast-twitch muscle action so train the slow-twitch only ... well, it wont really work out.

So does that mean fast forms are better?
Hell no! Forms by their very nature are "stylized" and contrived to "fit" aesthetically and spatially. the actual footwork required is nearly always absent, sure they teach recovery and counter options... but this is only useful to a tai chi fighter, who can easily identify the substance from the flowers, other than that theyy are catalogues of a styles techniques... a useful tool for a coach / master and to ensure the style doesn't lose useful techniques... e.g. I dont really like "White Crane Flaps its wings" throw, I've used it less than 10 times competitively, where as a student of mine really liked it, and used it 3-4 times in every sanda fight he had? If the styles form and drills relating to White Crane didn't exist maybe I'd never have trained others to do it?

So, the way to martial ability is the same for every style... practice with a partner or better still with several of different sizes and weights and dominant hands etc.. The nei gung will sort out the "internal" mechanics... and offer a far more adaptable method that can plug into the styles sanshou methods and train counter and recovery dynamics.. the form, or A form move repeated is only good for that move, sure it will probably contain several nei gung movements, but its being practiced in a sequential cage, where as nei gung breaks down the elements fundamental to all nei jia application.

But even with nei gung, partner practice of the sanshou techniques and wrestling and sparring is essential. Carving it into the nervous system and muscle memory again and again. We cannot "act in harmony with nature" if fighting is unnatural to us? Its another step up to bring the nei jin to the combat. a big one!!!

But people prefer short-cuts, secrets, not waking up and going to work with black eyes and torn knuckles... I know that the death-bed advice of Sun Lu-tang never occurred, but its a nice story and its true the only secret is practice! (proper practice, and the litmus test is the results, martial ones for a martial art!)

and before people pick up the wrong end of the stick... no I don't reject slow practice, there is nothing wrong with revision and through slow practice (which has its place) error and issues can be identified and we can use that awareness to correct our expression. Cheng Tin-hung was correct when he stated that we practice slowly to improve our speed. (But he didn't say - only slowly)

what I'm saying is fairly obvious... it doesn't demand "faith", and it offers results fast. Others in the tai chi world will contradict this, demand their students have patience (years and decades even of patience) awaiting results that never come... I mean that's just tyranny! and illogical, how could any art have survived and developed if every tool it used to develop meaningful martial skill didn't do anything noticeable for decades??? Whats the point of a martial art if you're already one foot in the grave before you can go outside?

That's why I find it difficult to listen to shite about "real" and "original" and the likes... show me the results, not some belly dancing air-strikes, show me that what is being presented doesn't fail at the primary goal of a martial art... fighting, after that we can open it up, and look at the training methods, and discuss how well they achieve that aim? Trying to circumvent a lack of credible evidence with "but my granddad invented it" so I'm the real deal, best of the best is just so pathetic

As for Cheng Tin-hung, Dan Docherty, my styles "Wudang" description, its not about claiming to have THE style passed down from Chang San-feng, its about acknowledging that a long line of capable masters have contributed to the development of the art, for a long, long time, and by in large they haven't been related. Like the Capitalists say: "a business is destroyed in three generations, the first one builds it, the second maintains and the third pisses it away." Such seems to be the fate of "Family" Tai Chi Chuan.
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