Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby Yeung on Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:07 am

The name Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972) is well-known in the Chinese Taijiquan community for his eight unique principles of Taijiquan which was published in the first chapter of Chen Shi Taijiquan (1963) and the following diagram from page 19 of his book should be known to everyone here:

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/images/silkr1.gif

His eight unique principles of Taijiquan is applicable to any style of Taijqian. From an article in the Jiangsu Provincial Archives:

http://www.dajs.gov.cn/art/2015/1/13/ar ... 62564.html

1. He was working in Beijing in 1912 and learned Taijiquan from Yang Jianhou (1839-1917)
2. He return to Beijing in 1922 and he learned the theories of Taijiquan from Yang Chengfu (1883-1936)
3. From 1928 he learnt from Chen Fake (1887-1957) for 10 years
4. He retired in 1957
5. He wrote the first three chapters of Chen Style Taijqian published in 1963
6. His later work was destroyed during the Cultural Revolution, and he was persecuted and passed away in 1972
7. He suggested that practitioners of Taijiquan should be versed with Yang Style before learning Chen Style

From section 4 of his second principle, he emphasized on the importance of getting rid of stiffness before the development of Peng or Bing Jin.

Is there an English translation of these eight unique principles of Taijiquan?
Yeung
Huajing
 
Posts: 317
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 10:07 am

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby charles on Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:39 pm

A portion of it can be found here: http://yangfamilytaichi.com/articles/silk-reeling/
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1212
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby amor on Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:57 pm

charles wrote:A portion of it can be found here: http://yangfamilytaichi.com/articles/silk-reeling/


In that link above from yang family taichi they say this about shun and ni regarding the palm turning:

According to qualities and capabilities, Tai Chi Chuan silk reeling energy can be divided into two basic types. The first is ‘forward’ (shun) silk reeling where the palms rotate from facing inward to facing outward. Within this group almost all consist of Peng (ward off) energy (see the solid lines in figure 1). The second type is ‘backward’ (ni) silk reeling where the palms rotate from facing outward to facing inward


mike sigman on his blog says its opposite : http://mikesigman.blogspot.co.uk/2013/0 ... _6229.html


The two opposing windings affect the way the whole body twists, but we can basically describe the windings as something like “come to” or “Shun” and “go against” or “Ni”. In other words, if you hold your hand palm-inward in front of your face and then push it out away from your face so that it’s palm-outward, the arm just spiraled in a “Ni” manner. Bringing your hand back, palm-inward, in front of your face will be spiraling in the “Shun” manner.



mike sigmans description of shun/ni differs from the author in the yangfamily taichi link but Im not just showing this because its mike, authors elsewhere ive seen also agree with mikes version.

So which one is the correct description here, any ideas?
Last edited by amor on Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
amor
Wuji
 
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 4:40 am

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby charles on Thu Aug 17, 2017 7:46 am

Yeung wrote: the following diagram from page 19 of his book should be known to everyone here:

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/images/silkr1.gif


Image

Since "this image should be known to everyone here", I'm curious what those here think the image means.
Last edited by charles on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:45 pm, edited 5 times in total.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1212
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby Tom on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:01 am

charles wrote:
Yeung wrote: the following diagram from page 19 of his book should be known to everyone here:

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/images/silkr1.gif


Image

To the best of my knowledge, the image, above, first appeared in Chen Xin's book. . . . .


Charles, the image of the hands referenced above is not in Chen Xin's book. The first time it appears is in Shen Jiazhen's book as cited. Shen and Gu Luxin, who helped with the book, both studied under Chen Fake.

A well-known diagram that did appear in Chen Xin's book is the whole-body silk-reeling:

Image
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
Tom
Administrator
 
Posts: 4428
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:33 am

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby amor on Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:24 pm

charles wrote:
Yeung wrote: the following diagram from page 19 of his book should be known to everyone here:

http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/images/silkr1.gif


Image

To the best of my knowledge, the image, above, first appeared in Chen Xin's book. Since "this image should be known to everyone here", I'm curious what those here think the image means.


I'll have a go then. Its shun and ni, counterclockwise and clockwise rotations of the palm. When one palm is Shun the other is Ni to maintain yin/yang separation such as in opening/closing of the body and to maintain the 'circularity' in movement or moving from the central axis.
amor
Wuji
 
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 4:40 am

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby charles on Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:47 pm

Tom wrote:Charles, the image of the hands referenced above is not in Chen Xin's book. The first time it appears is in Shen Jiazhen's book as cited.


Thanks for the correction, Tom.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1212
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby robert on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:03 pm

amor wrote:mike sigmans description of shun/ni differs from the author in the yangfamily taichi link but Im not just showing this because its mike, authors elsewhere ive seen also agree with mikes version.

So which one is the correct description here, any ideas?

I don't know the answer, but I think it's an interesting discussion. If you look at the link that Charles provided you see this

As we have already explained, movements must be like silk reeling, but how in our actual movements are we to realize this theory? In fact it’s quite ordinary and simple: within the requirements for the entire movement, as you move, the palms rotate from facing inward to outward or from facing outward to inward, 2 causing them to form a shape like the Tai Chi symbol (see figure 1).

The description that the palms rotate inward and outward seems pretty clear. Does the use of the terms shun and ni add any clarity? Why not just say inward and outward?

Here is an excerpt from Chen Xin's book

Coiling power (Chan Jin) is all over the body. Putting it most simply, there is coiling inward (Li Chan) and coiling outward (Wai Chan), which both appear once (one) moves. There is one (kind of coiling) when left hand is in front and right hand is behind; (or when) right hand is in front and left hand is behind; this one closes (He) (the hands) with one conforming (Shun) (movement). There is also one (coiling) that closes the inside of the left (side of the body) and the back of the right (side of the body), and another which uses the through-the-back power (Fanbei Jin) and closes towards the back. All of them should be moved naturally according to the (specific) postures.

He also says Putting it most simply, there is coiling inward (Li Chan) and coiling outward (Wai Chan). I like simplicity. He also says this one closes (He) (the hands) with one conforming (Shun) (movement) - he equates closing with shun; that agrees with what Mike said.

Chen Shi Taijiquan Tushuo was written between 1908 - 1919, are there earlier references to the terms shun and ni regarding chan si jin?
Try not to let the words confuse you — they serve no other purpose than to guide you into the inner structures of Taiji. Chen Xin
robert
Anjing
 
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby GrahamB on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:22 pm

In the picture the diagram on the left is for the left hand and the diagram on the right for the right hand. The numbers are significant as the points where you ("the body") change from open to close and vice versa.

The diagram is very accurate in terms of hand positions illustrated. Somebody should make a flick book or a gif of the diagram as an animation showing only one hand moving on it's progression. That would make an even better illustration.

Start with 10 minutes a day - making a big version of the circle then as you progress make it smaller and smaller. Get the weight shifts correct as well.

I wouldn't say this was a good starting point for a beginner as it's pretty difficult. I'd start with a simple circle.
Last edited by GrahamB on Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"The killer in me is the killer in you"- The Smashing Pumpkins.
http://www.taichinotebook.wordpress.com
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10916
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:27 am

It would be intersesting to see someone do the exercise that correlates to that diagram.
Last edited by cloudz on Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2403
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby GrahamB on Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:14 am

I was actually thinking of doing a video on it, but then I thought - why bother? It would just be a load of people telling me how my shit is fake ;D
"The killer in me is the killer in you"- The Smashing Pumpkins.
http://www.taichinotebook.wordpress.com
User avatar
GrahamB
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10916
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:30 pm

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:54 am

I've copied and pasted the image so I'll have a play with the exercise myself.. Never done one like this before; plenty of circling variations, but not the taiji diagram.. Should be interesting for taiji geeks everywhere! lol
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2403
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby amor on Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:13 am

robert wrote:
The description that the palms rotate inward and outward seems pretty clear. Does the use of the terms shun and ni add any clarity? Why not just say inward and outward?

Here is an excerpt from Chen Xin's book

Coiling power (Chan Jin) is all over the body. Putting it most simply, there is coiling inward (Li Chan) and coiling outward (Wai Chan), which both appear once (one) moves. There is one (kind of coiling) when left hand is in front and right hand is behind; (or when) right hand is in front and left hand is behind; this one closes (He) (the hands) with one conforming (Shun) (movement). There is also one (coiling) that closes the inside of the left (side of the body) and the back of the right (side of the body), and another which uses the through-the-back power (Fanbei Jin) and closes towards the back. All of them should be moved naturally according to the (specific) postures.

He also says Putting it most simply, there is coiling inward (Li Chan) and coiling outward (Wai Chan). I like simplicity. He also says this one closes (He) (the hands) with one conforming (Shun) (movement) - he equates closing with shun; that agrees with what Mike said.

Chen Shi Taijiquan Tushuo was written between 1908 - 1919, are there earlier references to the terms shun and ni regarding chan si jin?


Thanks Rob. You're right in that which one you give the name to depending on whether the palm rotates in or out-wards doesn't matter, what matters is the effect. For me I'd say Ni (palm outwards) has a pushing and opens the back but closes down the front on the side your doing it. Shun (palm inwards) has a pulling and closing action of the back but opens up the chest on the side your doing it.
It''s a difficult topic imo especially when you get into the energetic flows these movements cause and the many permutations that occur through out forms, no one except a taichi 'master' could tell you this.
There's not much on the rsf about this either understandably so. Not much on yt either but I found this excerpt from Chen Zhongua which shows a little:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADxV3GQwI5I
amor
Wuji
 
Posts: 626
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 4:40 am

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby charles on Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:54 am

charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1212
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby cloudz on Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:01 am

great, thankyou!
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
cloudz
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2403
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:00 am
Location: London UK

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest