Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:24 pm

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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby amor on Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:37 pm

Are you talking about single arm "circles" and what "powers" the circles? Which one? "Positive" or "negative"?


I was talking about a standard horse stance or symmetrical posture. When you wrote a few posts back about holding both arms in front above you and then twisting down in frontI just assumed it'd be a standard horse stance but with feet shoulder width apart. What I wrote was to illustrate a sort of template structure for determining shun and ni from a static posture and mapping this on to a symmetrical posture, based on a 'feeling of connection' while moving as per the single arm positive/negative circle movements. It's more about using the static posture to get an idea of where in the bodyyou should feel the point where you are opening and closing and transfer this to a moving assymetrical posture such as cloud hands.




The method involves using the abdomen ("center") to drive the motion of the extremities: all movement is initiated in the abdomen and all movement completes in the abdomen. "Energy" goes out from the center, "energy" returns to the center. The single hand circle is a method of training to develop that ability. The result of energy going out from the abdomen to the extremities (e.g. hand) in the positive circle is that the palm rotates to face outwards/downwards. The result of energy returning from the extremities (e.g. hand) in the positive circle is that the palm rotates to face inwards/upwards. The rotation of the palm is a result of what is happening elsewhere: the "engine" is the abdomen and there is a "drive train" that ends at and causes the motion of the extremities.


I am aware that the abdomen is driving the motion of the limbs. When I mentioned the pushing outwards during the Ni phase (from 1 to 3, in your example) I probably should have stated as per the IMA rule of moving from the root when going out and going back in from the tips. It's probably not a big deal to most people as they likely always doing this part correctly but in my case as I would find I'd get 'stuck' if not having a subtle intent to move out from the shoulder.
It's more like a 'hollowing' vs 'non-hollowing'. When moving out dont hollow the chest but when going in, hollow it so that the hand dont cramp up.

In the video that robert posted of chen Bing, Bing mentions about the cramping of the hand is easy to do. I find the reason for this, in my case, is because of the
position of the ribcage. The ribcage rotates or slide around the central axis in a side to side motion in mostly frontal plane and it feels more
'oriented' to the right side because I always anticipate my hand cramping up when doing a right arm positive circle but it rarely happens with a left arm exercise. So its easy
to mess this part up and do excess motion on the left side and 'toss'. Having said that I have loosened up enough so far to get the ribcage so its able to 'abduct' to the left
side of body but the difficulty is holding it fixed in position around the shoulder area. Most likely due to stagnation ( I do have some of that in my lower back still). But this rotational motion of the ribcage is as a result of the back gradually becoming looser and the only way to stop it from moving so much lies in strengthening the silk strands i.e. doing shun and ni correctly and locking everything down. Most peoples ribcage's dont move like this but getting motion in all 3 planes is what we are aiming for in part, during these exercises
In a standard symmetrical posture such as a horse stance yes Ni is to open and Shun is to close; this is
what I was referring to above in my first comment but when we are in assymetrical postures its more difficult to tell which is which. Because the abdomen is leading the motion sometimes I find the palms might turn a little too much or too little. These mistakes are all due to existing stagnation/tension that makes one 'bypass' those areas sometimes.
This is why having the step counts along the way like what CZH showed in the 7 count steps really helps one to keep a checklist.




Half of the "circle" is opening and half is closing. How is it possible to do both while "keeping the ribcage sunk"? The ribcage should be very active as it opens and closes. I don't think that one addresses tightness in one part of the body by introducing unnecessary tensions in other parts. If you risk wrenching or injuring your spine, likely your actions are incorrect.


When you mentioned about half the circle opening/closing, yes I agree. The 'ribcage sunk' part is like a preparation state which you should also end with
it's more like a double shun starting posture or at least you try to relax into double shun.
The difficulty in my case lies not with not understanding the shun and ni concepts but in feeling when you switch the ni/shun palms which is dependent on whether you have reachedthat point in the posture. When I mentioned above about ribcage frontal plane motion, this is vital to have before doing any posture as it will enable you to
lock the shoulder joints in place for when you do twisting with palms. This is as much about neurology as anything else and for such a profound change in the body structure
we do have to feel certain things are in place before moving on to subsequent steps.

But i'll briefly mention with an example so you have an idea what im getting at I use a moving cloud hands version as part of my training. So I start by putting all the weight
on the right leg which causes that leg to spiral in and at this point the ribcage feels like it is sinking down towards the the right lower, back quadrant and causes the left side of ribcage to move into upper left, front quadrant of the body. So I do Ni chan and hold it up (so it dosen't sink down too much and close my hip joint) and wait for a connection to occur on the left side of the body to lock the shoulder joint in place. AND then repeat the proces on the left leg so that the ribcage rises up on the right and sinks down on the left and lock the right shoulder. Once you got this initial part right (its not easy) then you can do more repetitions which facilitates better loosening than in static postures, far better imo.

But the important thing I want to ask you about this process if you can imagine it, as the ribcage sinks in when one side is doing NI chan (opening) and rises up on the other side (shun chan closing)
do you believe that the back opens up on say the right side for Ni chan and closes down on the left side for shun chan and vice-versa?
I ask this because the ribcage is, as you say very active in opening and closing, and this is how Im currently 'feeling' it. A sinking on one side which opens up the back
on that side occurs when I do Ni chan; and a corresponding closing down of the back on the other side for shun chan?

This is why I think we do Ni chan and shun chan as I've described it, Ni chan stops the rib cage from sinking too much down into the lower quadrants of the body in the back
whereas shun chan prevents the ribcage from popping out the front of the top front quadrants.


Hong's style has some significant differences from other Chen variants: what is "right" in Hong style is "wrong" in Chen Village/Feng styles; what is "right" in Village/Feng styles is "wrong" in Hong style. Start by learning one or the other: trying to mix and match will not likely produce much success.


What are the major differences in the body method? just so I can be aware of what to borrow and what not to borrow


There is really only one way: study with someone who is skilled in what you want to learn. Books, videos, discussion forums can help, but cannot substitute for a qualified teacher.

In my opinion, the most difficult basic skill is the ability to really "let go" or "relax". (It isn't the same thing as being limp.) In my opinion, without the requisite level of "relaxation" or "looseness", one cannot acquire more advanced skills. I suggest you not underestimate just how difficult it is to achieve that level of "relaxation", or how important it is as a foundation of traditional skills.



It is a difficult endeavor to completely relax, requires a lot of patience but still you have to do a lot of prep. work because the one thing that will stifle dantien leading movement is stagnation in the body especially when the fascia around the abdomen feels knotted up. I put it down to years of weight training (and many other poor lifestyle choices) around 16/17 and into my early 30's at which point I stopped. Thats a long time for pathological tension to build into the body and all sorts of compensations.

There is a lot of good articles and videos out there from the chen's, many good translations as well so westerners like us can pick things up. But yeah nothing beats a competent teacher, trouble is finding a good one, not many of them left or they are in another country.
Last edited by amor on Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby charles on Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:08 pm

amor wrote:...It's more about using the static posture to get an idea of where in the bodyyou should feel the point where you are opening and closing and transfer this to a moving assymetrical posture such as cloud hands.


The short answer is if you are having difficulty with asymmetric movements, make sure you can do it with simpler symmetric movements. If you can't do it with simpler symmetric movements, you probably can't with asymmetric ones.

I am aware that the abdomen is driving the motion of the limbs. When I mentioned the pushing outwards during the Ni phase (from 1 to 3, in your example) I probably should have stated as per the IMA rule of moving from the root when going out and going back in from the tips.


Not trying to be argumentative, but driving from the abdomen means driving from the abdomen, not "moving from the root when going out and going back in from the tips". You might be "aware" of it, but it doesn't sound like you have implemented it.

Bing mentions about the cramping of the hand is easy to do.


I don't know what "cramping of the hand" means in practical terms.


getting motion in all 3 planes is what we are aiming for in part, during these exercises


The Village/Feng exercises, at least at earlier stages, aren't intended to create simultaneous motion in 3 planes. They purposely, as part of the teaching method, break 3D motion explicitly into 2 specific planes - the third plane is implied. Hong style doesn't use this approach, instead teaching 3D motion, rather than planar motion, from the onset, making it more difficult to get.


In a standard symmetrical posture such as a horse stance yes Ni is to open and Shun is to close; this is
what I was referring to above in my first comment but when we are in assymetrical postures its more difficult to tell which is which.


If you understand the actions when done individually and/or symmetrically, it isn't/shouldn't be more difficult in asymmetric movements. To be clear, we're talking about movement, not static postures. Shun and ni are not static postures.

The difficulty in my case lies not with not understanding the shun and ni concepts but in feeling when you switch the ni/shun palms which is dependent on whether you have reachedthat point in the posture.


If you can't identify when to "switch", you are likely performing the actions incorrectly or not paying attention to what you feel. The "concept" is largely irrelevant. The physical actions are what count. It sounds like you've skipped too many basic-level steps and are stumbling in the dark at levels beyond your physical experience, relying upon what you've read.


When I mentioned above about ribcage frontal plane motion, this is vital to have before doing any posture as it will enable you to
lock the shoulder joints in place for when you do twisting with palms.


Perhaps it is semantics, but the shoulder joints shouldn't be locked and aren't a prerequisite for twisting the forearms/palms.

This is as much about neurology as anything else and for such a profound change in the body structure we do have to feel certain things are in place before moving on to subsequent steps.


I think you are way over-thinking/over-intellectualizing this.



But i'll briefly mention with an example so you have an idea what im getting at I use a moving cloud hands version as part of my training. So I start by putting all the weight on the right leg which causes that leg to spiral in and at this point the ribcage feels like it is sinking down towards the the right lower, back quadrant and causes the left side of ribcage to move into upper left, front quadrant of the body.


I'm not really following why putting all the weight on your right causes your left leg to "spiral in". In a bow stance, perhaps. In a horse stance, this would likely be an error - I'd have to see what you are doing. The ribcage hinges about its center. The ribcage can be tilted left and right and it can be rotated about its central axis. Perhaps it is semantics, but I'm having difficulty understanding your description. Do you mean that the ribcage is tilted to the right, bringing the right shoulder and right hip vertically closer together, while the left shoulder and left hip move vertically apart, while rotating, the right towards the rear, the left towards the front?


But the important thing I want to ask you about this process if you can imagine it, as the ribcage sinks in when one side is doing NI chan (opening) and rises up on the other side (shun chan closing) do you believe that the back opens up on say the right side for Ni chan and closes down on the left side for shun chan and vice-versa? I ask this because the ribcage is, as you say very active in opening and closing, and this is how Im currently 'feeling' it. A sinking on one side which opens up the back on that side occurs when I do Ni chan; and a corresponding closing down of the back on the other side for shun chan?


If I understand what you are saying, you could view the actions that way. If you tilt the ribcage to the left, the left hip and left shoulder come vertically closer to each other while the right hip and right shoulder separate vertically. You could describe it as the left side closing while the right side opens. Better still, is simply to say the left side is contracted while the right side is stretched. This action displaces the abdomen towards the right. This action can be used in the ni portion of the positive circle. As I've described it, the action is planar (Frontal Plane), without rotation of the torso, weight shift or bowing/unbowing of the spine (Sagittal Plane).

This is why I think we do Ni chan and shun chan as I've described it, Ni chan stops the rib cage from sinking too much down into the lower quadrants of the body in the back whereas shun chan prevents the ribcage from popping out the front of the top front quadrants.


You've lost me on this language.

What are the major differences in the body method? just so I can be aware of what to borrow and what not to borrow


The differences are too numerous to mention in a casual discussion. Don't mix 'n' match. You'll end up with a confused mush.

It is a difficult endeavor to completely relax, requires a lot of patience but still you have to do a lot of prep. work because the one thing that will stifle dantien leading movement is stagnation in the body especially when the fascia around the abdomen feels knotted up.


I guess it depends upon what you consider "prep work". Many curricula start with standing. One of the things standing with the arms hanging by the sides does is teach one to relax.

What you've written seems to suggest that "dan tian leading movement" is the natural order and one need only remove "stagnation" for it to reveal itself. I'm not sure that is an accurate assessment. People train specific things for a long time to develop awareness of "the dan tian" and how it relates to movement in the "internal" martial arts. It isn't something everyone knows how to do and all one need do is remove "stagnations". Ideally, one works through a progressive series of exercises, over time, that allow one to become aware of the dan tian and how it relates to movement.

There is a lot of good articles and videos out there from the chen's, many good translations as well so westerners like us can pick things up. But yeah nothing beats a competent teacher, trouble is finding a good one, not many of them left or they are in another country.


Without a firm foundation, obtained through hands-on training, one has to be especially gifted to be able to read about it and make any significant progress. It isn't that the good teachers have disappeared, its simply that there never has been a large number of them. If you really want to know, you will likely have to travel to meet teachers who know how to do this stuff.
Last edited by charles on Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby amor on Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:22 pm

If you understand the actions when done individually and/or symmetrically, it isn't/shouldn't be more difficult in asymmetric movements. To be clear,
we're talking about movement, not static postures. Shun and ni are not static postures.


To make the point of doing open/close with connection if you do shun which is a pushing to close movement, you push with the front muscles of the body.
But you need a 'restraint mechanism' when pushing otherwise you would close too much and its the back tendon structures which stop this full closure, the yin within the yang.
Similarly when you do a Ni chan movement you connect this time to the tendons at the front near the throat as
when you do Ni chan this is an opening movement and you pull (from the back) to open as in use the back muscles to open, so the front tendons prevent too much back contraction.
The tendons once they are developed act as a restraint mechanism as far as I am aware in this context of actively using one side, they are passively preventing too much movement so you need to be always connected to them so that they are activated.

This might sound long-winded or too intellectualized but it does work for me in open/close movements when I want to loosen up a bit unless I'm imagining it.
It also feels right in some chen style fajin postures. For example I would feel like my neck would really take it when doing typical CXW punching fajin but using the above
idea does help the force to stay down and out inpite of fascial tension elsewhere. Maybe you agree on this or not.


If you can't identify when to "switch", you are likely performing the actions incorrectly or not paying attention to what you feel. The "concept" is largely irrelevant.
The physical actions are what count. It sounds like you've skipped too many basic-level steps and are stumbling in the dark at levels beyond your physical experience, relying
upon what you've read
.

Your probably right on the skipping part. I have done my fair share of basics loosening exercises to become more aware of exactly how this physical connection of the body
should be felt. Perhaps if I had started with drills specific to the Chen style then I'd have a better idea of the physical actions that should proceed as the experience
accumulated.
It is and it i'sn't about when to 'switch' other factors are making me hesitant in these positive/negative circle movements, I feel pulls going up from my head and neck all the way down to the feet and some of it can be quite painful. This indicates to me that I was not relaxed enough or I had 'lost' the initial connection somewhere up in the body around the neck that I had to start with. Remember if there is a core problem its usually a neck problem - osteopathy101. And not many people have a perfect neck alignment

Perhaps it is semantics, but the shoulder joints shouldn't be locked and aren't a prerequisite for twisting the forearms/palms.


Maybe 'locked' is the wrong word but I mean locking in the connection that allow the bowing of the arms that actually feel like your pulling a bow. There is a
definite lock that takes place somewhere around the shoulder that seems to allow you to feel and 'grasp' these tendon structures that go to the thumb and index finger.
Its like that posture bend the bow to shoot the arrow or something similar. It feels like that and when they are not locked in it feels like they are being over stretched and no tension.
This happens, when not locked, as I am quite loose in that area of the back and the corresponding front structures are not well developed and the scapula doesn't always align correctly at the right point.

I'm not really following why putting all the weight on your right causes your left leg to "spiral in". In a bow stance, perhaps. In a horse stance,
this would likely be an error - I'd have to see what you are doing
.

This part I got from a book on basically doing what I describe to stimulate the opening and closing of the mingmen, its more of a qigong and for health
I dont do it well but basically I start off in hip-width stance. This is like the maximum height of the body length-wise. But you have to relax so that when the tailbone starts to feel like its dangling from side to side you shift all the weight on the right foot which displaces the abdomen to the left side, or its supposed to. When you do it right it does displace the abdomen to the left and the right leg does feel like its spirals inwards. The problem
is when you dont have a good enough connection to the area of the spine near the neck; that connection I talked about in the first reply above I mentioned when your in shun and ni (back and front) your supposed to have both and on both left and right side. Just basically the front and back meridians.

So if the abdomen doesn't displace fully then haven't got the connection above that would have caused it to displace and a proper weight shift (in my case when it does transfer correctly it gets caught in a stagnated area on the left and bounces back)and waist movement but when it does (because you obtained full height and thus sunk all your weight correctly) then the left leg spirals outwards and when you land on left heel it causes that leg to spiral in and the other to spiral out. It's just cloud hands with more internal awareness I suppose. Or simple stepping out with weight shifting and turning of the waist and really engaging your spine in the movement. But whatever leg is spiralling it stimulatesthe kidneys on that side apparently. As you successively switch between the legs the distance between the hands tends to get less but its difficult to
sustain in my case so cant say much beyond this.


The ribcage hinges about its center. The ribcage can be tilted left and right and it can be rotated
about its central axis. Perhaps it is semantics, but I'm having difficulty understanding your description. Do you mean that the ribcage is tilted to the right, bringing
the right shoulder and right hip vertically closer together, while the left shoulder and left hip move vertically apart, while rotating, the right towards the rear, the
left towards the front?


Your above is a good explanation of what I think is happening. I'm not going to get into the cloud hands aspect of this since the mapping of whats happening in there
compared with the positive/negative circle is not exact.

When you mention about the left shoulder and left hip moving apart and drawing together of hip and shoulder on right do you mean in the statement that follows that the right
shoulder moves back towards the rear and the left shoulder moves to the front? If this is what you mean can you also tell what is happening to the ribcage structures
around the corresponding shoulder area? I feel that the ribs on the right are also moving to the rear and the ribs on the left are moving to the front which is just a reflection
I suppose of where we 'feel' the shoulder area to be. If I am correct in this assumption then the ribcage would also be rotating, as you state above
(...left hip move vertically apart, while rotating, the right towards... )
. Do you believe this rotation is transverse plane motion? If it is then that would mean the ribcage
would effectively be rotating to the right. As the ribcage is rotating to the right this should cause the waist to turn to the left to maintain body alignment. This would
then cause the pelvis to move which I think moves the right hip joint upwards and the left hip joint downwards which seems to agree with the frontal plane motion mentioned above.
This should then displace the waist to the left which helps in pulling down the lower ribs down

The problem for me when the waist displaces to the left I have a hard time pulling down the back lower ribs particularly on the left (right seems ok). And I think this in turn is due to an inability to to 'lock on' to the top ribs around the shoulder area. If you imagine the typical archway bridge with the tower above suspended on the bridge (which
we've all probably seen as an analaogy to the dang) the cables that hold the tower above are the tendons and I think the tendon structures holding the ribcage in place are
not developed. So when I get to this point in the movement for positive circle) which would be towards the end of shun as you turn waist and draw the elbow in with the right hand and starting of Ni chan this feels like an obstruction. An obstruction at the left lower quadrant
Im not sure if you implied waist turn or weight shift in your example of the positive circle above but I feel I definitely do need to perform these 2 things now if I am to make further progress.
It's not the superficial muscles that are tight its the actual skeletal muscles that might actually be weak
I'm just wondering if a positive circle is suitable for getting this area to release better than a negative circle or perhaps some other movement will prove better?


What you've written seems to suggest that "dan tian leading movement" is the natural order and one need only remove "stagnation" for it to reveal itself. I'm not sure that is
an accurate assessment. People train specific things for a long time to develop awareness of "the dan tian" and how it relates to movement in the "internal" martial arts. It
isn't something everyone knows how to do and all one need do is remove "stagnations". Ideally, one works through a progressive series of exercises, over time, that allow one to
become aware of the dan tian and how it relates to movement.


well I believe that getting stagnantion cleared is just the beginning to be able to start learning dantien rotation and all of its motions and combinations but its not the
be all and end all.
Stagnantion will get in the way of sensitivity you can't increase sensitivity through pain imo.
I have been doing this for about 9 years now solidly and in that time I have got some good fluid/blood flow to areas of my body which has probably cleared alot of my meridians and loosed me up quite a bit.
But there are other areas that have not gotten cleared and have had very minimal fluid flow. So my body is quite progressed in some areas of dynamic movement
but not in others. I think this is the chief factor in why my progress has stifled a bit, its not the fact that I left out important parts (although I would agree
that is probably part of the problem) but the fluid flow has left me so loose in some areas and not so loose where fluid flow hasn't occurred.
Its all about fluid/blood flow imo.
Last time I saw my taichi teacher she said my taichi is still rubbish haha but I really did have a improved connection to the ground because the structures around my hips
have loosened up considerably. I feel I am carrying a massive block where my hips are and every time I walk I feel I have to lift from my hips instead of those puny lower legmuscles that most people walk with. What I am trying to say is is that yes I didn't follow the whole strict plan and I if I had followed something like your silk reeling videos then perhaps the transition would have been smoother but I think everyone probably encounters these problems in such an endeavor.



I don't know what "cramping of the hand" means in practical terms.


If you go back to the chen bing video its around teh 2.25 point. I know what he is getting at its to do with what we talked about above basically and when the abdomen displaces
it doesn't displace fully or evenly to one side to the shoulder and diaphragm are not 'sunk', at least I think its this but I maybe wrong might be something totally different.
But this video is interesting especially the beginning portion from the beginning to the 01:20 part. When he raises the right hand what do you believe that is, it looks
like Ni chan to me so that would make the left hand in shun chan until the right hand gets to shoulder level. Then he sinks and the right palm goes shun and therefore the left
palm goes into Ni chan. Which leg do you think he sinks on, Left?
I have been playing with preparatory movement but I can't get it fully going because of issues in the lower body I think it locks structure in place so you have the correct
standing height before you go into the lower body movements.

What do you think he is doing in the rise and fall part?
Doing this movement correctly seems to rely on putting the correct intent on the fingers something that eludes me.
Last edited by amor on Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby charles on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:53 am

amor,

Sometimes, lifting an arm is just lifting an arm and lowering an arm is just lowering an arm.

The only useful thing I can offer is don't over-analyze or micro-manage and "don't be too smart":

In the Spring of 1993, Vince Black, Tim Cartmell, and I were interviewing a Xing Yi master in Taiwan. We had been asking questions of this gentleman for a couple of hours and as the interview came to a close Vince said, “Before we end this interview, are there any words of advice that you can give us regarding the practice of Xing Yi." The gentleman thought for a minute and then said. "You cannot be too smart and practice XingYi. Attainment of XingYi skill requires repetition of the same thing thousands of times. If you think too much you will not be content with repeating the same movements so many times. Practice hard, keep it simple, and don't be too smart!" This is the same as the Xing Yi Quan adage to "practice the plain without embellishment, practice simple movements until they are highly refined."


From Xing Yi Nei Gong, Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell.
Last edited by charles on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972)

Postby amor on Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:46 pm

charles wrote:amor,

Sometimes, lifting an arm is just lifting an arm and lowering an arm is just lowering an arm.

The only useful thing I can offer is don't over-analyze or micro-manage and "don't be too smart":

In the Spring of 1993, Vince Black, Tim Cartmell, and I were interviewing a Xing Yi master in Taiwan. We had been asking questions of this gentleman for a couple of hours and as the interview came to a close Vince said, “Before we end this interview, are there any words of advice that you can give us regarding the practice of Xing Yi." The gentleman thought for a minute and then said. "You cannot be too smart and practice XingYi. Attainment of XingYi skill requires repetition of the same thing thousands of times. If you think too much you will not be content with repeating the same movements so many times. Practice hard, keep it simple, and don't be too smart!" This is the same as the Xing Yi Quan adage to "practice the plain without embellishment, practice simple movements until they are highly refined."


From Xing Yi Nei Gong, Dan Miller and Tim Cartmell.


I will disagree with you on the 'just lowering arm" part but I do agree that repetition is the key . It's not about being smart though and more a case of trying to find 'shortcuts', if possible, but there no shortcuts everyone has to do the work some more than others.
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