Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:23 am

Trick wrote:
Bao wrote:
The training swords we use are great, with just the right balance of power and safety. Cutting work doesn't interest me as much, as I'm more into the fencing aspect of it and a walking stick or badminton racket would be more practical than wielding an actual sword in a pinch (unless it's the apocalypse). I would like to get some proper wooden training Jian for solo work, though. Any suggestions?


Jian practice won't help you with use of badminton racket, cane etc. Jian demands a very special usage,. When you play the jian, you need to understand the balance point of the sword and adapt the movements to that point. You need to understand how to cut with a jian. It's nothing like using an axe. However, most people play with it like it was an axe. So all their form practice, how pretty they ever can move in their shiny pyjamas, their practice is a complete waste of time. If you want to use a weapons form for other kind of tools, the dao/broadsword/saber is the best weapon to practice. You can hack and slash with it just like an axe and you have the twist and turn movements of the wrist that are useful and strengthen the wrist as well.

I agree that Dao/sabre practice would adapt much better into stick/cane "self defense" . Maarten, find a carpenter and have him cut out a wooden Jian, the "blade" of course thicker and a just little wider, choose a sturdy wood. What are the Sparring "swords" you use made of ? The sparring you do is something like this ?http://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XMjg0OTE3MDUyOA==.html?spm=a2h0k.8191407.0.0&from=s1.8-1-1.2&source=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.soku.com%2Fsearch_video%2Fq_%25E8%258B%2597%25E5%2588%2580. http://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XMjY2NTE ... %2588%2580

The fencing that we do is a lot more violent, since all of us have trained unarmed fighting for many years. We really go for the kill. We currently don't have much protection and use heavy, rigid foam swords. Someone had their wrist seriously injured last week.. :P

Eventually I want to move on and use more authentic blades with armour, but the techniques are the same and it's great to not have to invest much money to start out. Also, I reckon the quality of that stuff will be much better in the West, so I'm in no rush.
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:24 am

Eric_H wrote:Used to run a saber club. I've bought a few dozen wasters from Raven studios over the years, I can vouch for the quality of what they make.


That's really good to hear. They seem like the most interesting of the lot to me. :)
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:26 am

Niall Keane wrote:Another thing... over the years I've noticed this..

some people are trained standard systems and dont fight... sanda wrestling etc...

other do and then go on to sabre, spear, sword...


we have a good bit of sparring equipment for weapons...

the inexperienced at fighting always got overwhelmed by the ferocity of the fighters, even where they had more sword skills...

this is the same style but different approaches... it was an eye-opener!

We don't have a problem with ferocity.. If anything we scare off people.. :P

That being said, technique seems to be more important here than in unarmed combat.
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:31 am

johnwang wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:Any suggestions?

The basic skills are much more important than the form.

If you train sword, you should train

1. stab your sword on a tree, move your hand in big circle while the tip of your sword still stay on the tree. This way your hand can make a big circle while the tip of your sword only make a small circle (to cut on your opponent's sword holding hand).
2. step into bow arrow stance and stab, step back into bow arrow stance with 45 degree upward cut on your opponent's sword holding hand.
3. jump from far distance and straight down cut.
4. 45 degree downward cut followed by horizontal cut.
5. ...

1 and 2 are used to drop your opponent's sword. 3, 4, and ... are used to kill.

If you train Miao Diao, you should train

- left comb hair, straight cut.
- right comb hair, horizontal cut.
- horizontal saw your opponent's waist.
- 45 degree upward cut.
- ...

The reason that I like Miao Diao more than sword because I can almost find the same open hand technique for each and every Miao Diao move.

Thank you for your suggestions, John. I really like the first one. We aren't doing any forms. I think that they are next to worthless for swords. It's really just training the basics over and over again, drilling and fencing. I'd love to hear about more specific drills that you train.

I think that the Miaodao is probably the better overall weapon for sword-fighting, but the single-handed versions seem more practical. If we want the best weapon then a spear would be even more effective.. :P
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby jaime_g on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:59 am

Maarten, do you use fencing masks?
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:40 am

No matter how ferocious you are with foam weapons it is just fantasy
If the weapons can't cut or break bone people move in a different manner
No matter how much you train with bare hands it is not the same
My sword forms are invaluable and reveal new things to me every day
That does not mean I don't do plenty of repetitive drills
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:41 am

jaime_g wrote:Maarten, do you use fencing masks?

We have some, but with these training swords I prefer some foam head-guards with metal face-grill.
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:51 am

wayne hansen wrote:No matter how ferocious you are with foam weapons it is just fantasy
If the weapons can't cut or break bone people move in a different manner
No matter how much you train with bare hands it is not the same
My sword forms are invaluable and reveal new things to me every day
That does not mean I don't do plenty of repetitive drills

Obviously. But we all have to start somewhere. I plan to upgrade to wood with armour after things start going well in the West and eventually to metal, funds permitting. The important thing right now is to learn the techniques and training methods and to gain fighting experience. I've got a group of martial artists (my Gongfu brothers) that have all trained for many years and we are learning and fencing together every day.

These training swords are realistic enough for us at this point. My bruised hand, arm, shoulder and thigh can attest to that. The thrusts hurt as well, but I tend to get out of the way.. 8-) Just like sparring full contact with gloves and a head-guard and sparring more lightly without are both different sides of the same coin. I think that sparring hard in the beginning is more important, though. Think of it as something I'm building towards, but won't be able to afford for some time.
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby Bao on Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:06 am

..
Last edited by Bao on Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby Peacedog on Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:20 am

Scott Rodell is probably the leading Chinese swordsmanship practitioner in the US.

He trained in the 1980s in China in the Yang system. He has skill and runs a jian fighting league in the US.

He can be found here: https://www.grtc.org

I'm sure he could answer any questions you have regarding equipment.

The little sword work I learned with a jian closely resembled late medieval broadsword technique.

Interestingly a lot of translations exist regarding this kind of thing in the West and might be worth reading up on.
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby Trick on Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:23 am

Bao wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:The fencing that we do is a lot more violent, since all of us have trained unarmed fighting for many years. We really go for the kill. We currently don't have much protection and use heavy, rigid foam swords.


I have really no idea why you ask about a traditional weapon like the jian when you have absolutely no interest in learning real authentic swordplay. :P

I have no idea about "a lot more violent" . I of course have not been in a real sword duel not even witnessed one and hope I will never be doing it. As Bao mentioned, when one practice with a sword,forms or other solo exercises it is imortant to understand and respect the sword, so also when sparring with practice swords. A real sword is a very sharp tool and this should be in ones mind when sparring, to exercise a high level of understanding of distance and timing is of outmost important.
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby Eric_H on Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:27 am

MaartenSFS wrote:Someone had their wrist seriously injured last week.. :P


I've heard a lot of good things about the impact gel armor, though haven't tried it myself. Might be worth it to try a pair of gloves to see if it can save a wrist next time:

https://www.zoombang.com/product/max-coverage-gloves/
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby Bao on Fri Aug 25, 2017 12:09 pm

...
Last edited by Bao on Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby johnwang on Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:22 pm

MaartenSFS wrote: I really like the first one. We aren't doing any forms.

The 1st training is used to develop skill in 0.46 - 1.00 in the 1st clip. Since the 1st sword form that I have learned is a 2 men form. It's easier to train individual drills. All my suggestion can be seen in these 2 clips.

In my systems, we have 6 sword forms but I have only learned 2, the 三才對剑 and 昆吾锏 (I did not learn 青萍劍). Today, it's quite sad to see that most people just treat sword training as dancing. The application gradually disappear from sword training. I was glad that my teacher taught me the 2 men form first.



Last edited by johnwang on Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Anyone do Chinese swordmanship?

Postby MaartenSFS on Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:01 pm

Bao wrote:
MaartenSFS wrote:The fencing that we do is a lot more violent, since all of us have trained unarmed fighting for many years. We really go for the kill. We currently don't have much protection and use heavy, rigid foam swords.


I have really no idea why you ask about a traditional weapon like the jian when you have absolutely no interest in learning real authentic swordplay. :P

And I have no idea where you got that notion from, since I didn't state that anywhere... :-\
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