## Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

### Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

I have a body and arms, I have no shoulders. The power come from my body. My body only moves strait and rotates. My arms create a structure for my bodies power to go through, they have little power by themselves. My arms only move strait and rotate. Where are my shoulders? I Lost them because they led my body and arms astray. They are hiding in my body now, where they can only move strait and rotate.
rojcewiczj
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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

rojcewiczj wrote: My body only moves strait and rotates.

The human body is also capable of expanding and contracting, getting bigger and smaller, in addition to translation (linear motion) and rotation (angular motion). Rigid bodies have only translation and rotation, leading to linear motion in any or all of X, Y and Z axes and rotational motion about those same axes, giving six "degrees of freedom". A coiled spring, for example, potentially has all six degrees of freedom plus the ability to expand and contract.

My arms only move strait and rotate.

The arms, like the legs, are also capable of bending and un-bending. "Rotation" can be twisting of the limbs (about their longitudinal axes), a component of "spiral" (helical) motion, or can be rotation about a point, such as swinging the arm from the shoulder, with the shoulder as the center of rotation.
charles
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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

Trick
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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

Oh, let's have another round of "not using shoulders"....

So you must have missed one of my favourite vids…. Well, let’s go another round. This is maybe one of the the best ways to show the other side of the story, instead of the common idea that the upper body should be straight and have no own movement

2:45 - 3:50 https://youtu.be/5O2kCqevdUM?t=165

”See my back. if you do it right, it expands”
”You need hanxiong to evade in certain applications”
”How can you achieve it? From the form!”

He is not really talking about shoulders though, but the use of the back.... But I think this part illustrates how form is usually not percieved. Anyway, ”not using shoulders” is the very beginner’s stage only, when you start to learn a form and try to control your body and relax your shoulders. As soon as you know the movements of the form, you should move away from that stage as soon as possible and start to use the different parts of the body more actively. ”When one part moves, all of the body moves.” This quote doesn’t mean that some parts are not used, it means that the whole body should be in movement. The shoulders are a part of the body and they should be used just like how they are used in application. Of course, you must practice practical applications at the very same time as you learn form. Otherwise, the form will be wrong and useless.
Last edited by Bao on Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Bao
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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

My point is not that the upper body has no movement, but that the shoulders move in one energy with the body and that the arms move with their own energy which coordinates with the body. The shoulders should not move as of part of the arm.
rojcewiczj
Anjing

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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

rojcewiczj wrote:My point is not that the upper body has no movement, but that the shoulders move in one energy with the body and that the arms move with their own energy which coordinates with the body. The shoulders should not move as of part of the arm.

That sounds good, but I don't know what it means, practically.

What is their "own energy" with which the arms move? How is that different from the "energy" of the "body"?

Since the shoulder is the "root" of the arm, what does it mean that, "The shoulder should not move as part of the arm"? If the arm is connected to the torso at the shoulder, how does one move the arm, if not through its connection to the torso?

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say, in practical terms. Can you give an example of what is "right" and what is "wrong", as you are describing it?
charles
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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

I mean that the arm moves by the shoulder joint in seperation from the shoulder. The shoulder should move by the movement of the body.
rojcewiczj
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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

rojcewiczj wrote:I have a body and arms, I have no shoulders.

You must come from a rich family.

I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

John Wang your images make the point exactly. The Shoulders are part of the body, the arms are separate. They use their bodies to bear the weight. Many people have the problem of trying to move their shoulders as if they were one thing with the arms.
rojcewiczj
Anjing

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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

So where does the arm start and finish
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
wayne hansen
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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

What exactly do you think the "shoulder" is? Deltoid muscles? Scapula? Glenohumoral joint? The entire complex, including the collar bone all the way to the sternum and all the tissues that connect to the scapula, humerus, and clavical? By most definitions of shoulder, it is impossible to move the arm without moving the shoulder, and attempting to do so is a good way to hurt yourself. And what do you mean by "move"? Do you mean literally any movement at all, or do you use it like Chen Zhonghua as some sort of vague colloquial jargon to replace clearer, standardized terms?

It may sound like I'm being pedantic, but really I'm just trying to figure out what you're saying. I always find it worthwhile to take the time to actually look at the anatomy and see if what I think I'm feeling actually matches what physics and anatomy say are possible (or probable).
Bhassler
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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

rojcewiczj wrote:I mean that the arm moves by the shoulder joint in seperation from the shoulder. The shoulder should move by the movement of the body.

Like some of the other posters mentioned this seems confused.

The basic idea is that the shoulder does not block the transmission of
"energy" from the core body movement. The more relaxed and integrated
with core movement the more transmission can occur. Open and close
helps to explain some of this process.

The shoulder does not move but allows for the transmission of movement
though it out to the finger tips and beyond.

Any type of tension blocks this type of transmission.
The underling connections and structure of the shoulder is still used
but not used to generate a force, they are used in allowing the transmission of force.
rule 19
windwalker
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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

it is impossible to move the arm without moving the shoulder, and attempting to do so is a good way to hurt yourself. And what do you mean by "move"? Do you mean literally any movement at all,

Not really.

a large part of IMA training is learning how to move with out engaging the shoulder
Yes some might say he is moving his shoulders in the clip...the basic idea is that he is allowing
movement to travel through them to his finger tips.

When I work with people I allow them to feel my shoulders which do not move in moveing
my arms. Not something that is natural requires a lot of training to relaxe and free them.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

When I say arm, I mean the limbs which stick out from the torso. When I say Shoulder I mean all that remains within the form of the torso. You have to be able to move your arms without moving your shoulders in order to retain the structural integrity of the arms in relation to the shoulder. Why many people will never have full potential of transferring their whole body mass through contact is because they try to move the shoulder into the structure of the arm, feeling that the arm is too weak without the shoulder. In fact, when you can isolate your arm from your shoulder, you gain the whole body with which to transfer mass through your arm; your shoulder takes on a new role as a part of the torso not as part of the arm.
rojcewiczj
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### Re: Body and Arms, I have no shoulders

windwalker wrote:a large part of IMA training is learning how to move with out engaging the shoulder
Yes some might say he is moving his shoulders in the clip...the basic idea is that he is allowing
movement to travel through them to his finger tips.

By "enaging the shoulder" I assume you mean the muscles of the shoulder girdle. Allowing movement/energy to pass through without engaging muscles is not the same as not moving. There is a ton of shoulder movement in the clip -- it's quite lovely, really, and pretty much the opposite of inhibiting the movement of the shoulders in any way, shape or form.
Bhassler
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