3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

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3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby Yeung on Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:48 am

I am writing an article entitled “3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan” with reference to: Shen Jiazhen (1891-1972) published the 2D silk wrapping model in 1963 with some concepts on spiralling, centrifugal force and centripetal force; Hong Junsheng (1907-1996) suggested the idea of rotation and orbital movements in his book in 1989; Fu Zhensong (1881-1953) taught the 8 circular torso movements to direct the limbs in various sizes and was further developed by his followers. It would be much appreciated to hear any comment and reference from members of this forum.
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby charles on Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:25 am

Sounds like a great project. I'd be very interested in reading the article.

One of the interesting areas is how one goes, physically, from silk reeling in 2D to silk reeling in 3D. The current Chen Village teachings are of 2D practices and it is largely left to the student, or not, to figure out how to extrapolate those into fully 3D movement.

By contrast, Hong starts off with 3D movement and is, consequently, more physically demanding. Simply reading his book isn't sufficient to understand the physical mechanics of his method.

Were you able to find a full translation of Shen's book? I think it unlikely that either centrifugal or centripetal forces have much or a role in Taijiquan. I find it interesting that you want to write about the "3D model". How did you come by that interest, specifically?

Lastly, why "silk wrapping" rather than "silk reeling"?
Last edited by charles on Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:59 am

In the earlier article on the diagrams I pointed out that those that were doing a 2d model didn't understand the exercise
Life is 3D
I would love to see Fu,s 8 exercises as I never saw them when training fu
Are they on youtube
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby Yeung on Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:27 am

charles wrote:Sounds like a great project. I'd be very interested in reading the article.

One of the interesting areas is how one goes, physically, from silk reeling in 2D to silk reeling in 3D. The current Chen Village teachings are of 2D practices and it is largely left to the student, or not, to figure out how to extrapolate those into fully 3D movement.

By contrast, Hong starts off with 3D movement and is, consequently, more physically demanding. Simply reading his book isn't sufficient to understand the physical mechanics of his method.

Were you able to find a full translation of Shen's book? I think it unlikely that either centrifugal or centripetal forces have much or a role in Taijiquan. I find it interesting that you want to write about the "3D model". How did you come by that interest, specifically?

Lastly, why "silk wrapping" rather than "silk reeling"?


Thank you for your comment and questions. Our group in East Midlands, UK, will be working through the eight principles in the first chapter of Shen's book. For the time being, we only got the contents of the first chapter in English. Shen was a railway engineer and the concept of moving away to and from the center was not new in 1963. It is clear in Figure 13 of his book in demonstrating rotation from the central axis will left the arms and they drop when it is stop. It is a good example if properly explained in terms of limbs directed by the torso. It is interesting in generating various circular motions in different anatomical plans. Wrapping silk around the body to form the cocoon making more sense in the 3D context. Pulling or reeling silk from the cocoon can be done by rotating a reel in 2D.
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby Yeung on Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:47 am

If you follow Shen's diagram with two hands then it has to be 2D even with variations in the sizes of circles but the way to do it is 3D. The movements of limbs directed by the torso is basic in Fu Zhensong's martial arts, and practitioner should be able to move his or her midsection clockwise and anticlockwise horizontally, vertically, frontally, and diagonally. But this is difficult to pickup from videos without learning from a proper teacher.
Last edited by Yeung on Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:55 pm

Are the exercises out there on video
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby Yeung on Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:19 am

I was told this morning that there is a scene in the Jet Li movie Hero (2002) spoke about body movement in calligraphy and application to sword fighting, etc. So it is nothing new.

I have not notice any video on the 8 circular movements but there was a book published by Fu Zhensong’s followers that you can find some references as follows:

Lai S., Yeung Y. and Xie D., "Exercise Your Spine For Health", Guangzhou, Ling Nan Arts, 1996 (in Chinese)
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:47 am

Thanks for that
If you want to see calligraphy used in combat watch Dreadnaught with Kwan tak hing
The fight scenes in that are great
Pretty sure it is on youtube
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby GrahamB on Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:44 pm

Not that I've ever done calligraphy, but this pattern does look quite like you're doing calligraphy.

I'll get you a vid soon Wayne - I just need to get it looking better....
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby willie on Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:59 am

Calligraphy is actually 2D because the paper is flat. The concept has to do with 3D moves such as S-Line.
It could appear as relatively harmless flowing movements. It also could be the extreme beginning or ending
of either Yin or Yang which expresses power in a non-linear fashion.
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:29 am

willie wrote:Calligraphy is actually 2D because the paper is flat.


The paper might be flat, but you still move in 3D. Your body is 3D, not 2D.
Last edited by Bao on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:37 am

Next time you see some young guy spraying a wall ask him about 3D
Even though the paper is flat the energy applied is not
This is why there are thick splotches and thin trail offs
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby Bao on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:41 am

wayne hansen wrote:Next time you see some young guy spraying a wall ask him about 3D
Even though the paper is flat the energy applied is not
This is why there are thick splotches and thin trail offs


Excellent description. This is why chinese calligraphy is such a great tool for checking your control of your movements and your awareness thereof. The technique is so sensitive. Make a big circle with a big brush and see if you can paint it with completely even ink. 8-)
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby robert on Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:42 am

willie wrote:Calligraphy is actually 2D because the paper is flat. The concept has to do with 3D moves such as S-Line.
It could appear as relatively harmless flowing movements. It also could be the extreme beginning or ending
of either Yin or Yang which expresses power in a non-linear fashion.

As Wayne pointed out we live in a 3D world. Calligraphy is 3D. Many Chinese brushes are tapered and by moving the brush closer to the paper or away from the paper you change the thickness of the line. You have to lift the brush off the paper or all the lines would be connected.

Image

The end result is a 2D image, but the paper itself is 3D. If a person does silk reeling exercises/qigong their whole body is moving in 3 space.
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Re: 3D Silk Wrapping Model in Taijiquan

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:40 am

I have taught exercises to some of the worlds best graffiti artists the subtlety there is equal to the best calligraphers
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