Telling it like it is

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Telling it like it is

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:16 pm

Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby Bao on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:50 am

He seems to have his head on straight. Yup, he says it just like it is and expresses himself very well. 8-)

Thank you for sharing.
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby cloudz on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:10 am

Very well said, bang on.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby KEND on Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:33 am

So true. Much of what passes for kung fu nowadays is what I call cocktail party chatter--'I train with this master bs' all forms no combat. There are a few people who are passionate but most don't like contact and live in a world of make believe. The sad thing here is that some feel they are 'empowered; and try it out against say a knife and get cut up or killed
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:55 am

Here's the video on youtube.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEJHXR6ZtMw

Adam says boxers beat wing chun, because they train more and their personality. But @ 4:53, Adam says there are some CMA people that have the same traits and train just as much, making the first half of the video not very useful. :-\

Boxing develops fighting skills such as distance control, timing, broken rhythm, positioning, etc., as Bruce Lee writes about in his "Tao of Jeet Kune Do." Given equal traits and training time, boxing concepts and methods to train these skills contribute more to a boxer beating a wing chun person.

A couple videos where Adam is demonstrating Tai Chi moves:

Adam Chan
Published on Nov 11, 2016

Forms are useless if you do not know what the movements represent and they are very useful if you understand the idea behind the moves. How to learn the applications and reverse engineer it? Rather its Wing Chun techniques or tai chi etc ... the process are similar in many ways:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLgJw10J79o

Adam Chan
Published on Feb 8, 2017

In this youtube episode :

How do we use Wing CHun, tai chi and other Gung Fu against superior strength?

We only have time in this short video to look at a couple of examples, in reality regardless of the attack, the concepts used is the same.

It is not a matter of remembering endless counters, but rather following specific principles such as :
1 never fight force with force
2 whipping uncoiling strikes doesn't require strength
3 fill in empty spaces
4 relax progressively, never let fear control you
5 If you can uproot him , it will prevent him the base he needs to use his strength

In order to make these Gung fu principles come to life, we need to train in the proper drills until we do not have to think about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9NT51KGYsI
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby Wanderingdragon on Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:33 pm

I think the video makes it very clear a fighter trains to fight, and few who pay to learn Kung fu are aware that it's fighting and not choreography. Its a character trait.
The point . is absolute
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby marvin8 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:31 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:I think the video makes it very clear a fighter trains to fight, and few who pay to learn Kung fu are aware that it's fighting and not choreography. Its a character trait.


That was my mistake. :-[ Adam did make a "clear" point that some wing chun people lose against boxers because of a lack of the right character.

However, I felt a more useful point could have been made: Not only why Bruce Lee and Wang Xiangzhai adopted western boxing (strong character), but how. At least in Bruce’s case, his integration of western boxing into his Jeet Kune Do style has been documented. Early on Bruce Lee felt there were some short comings in the Wing Chun style. So, he modified it.

Exploring further what boxing practices and skills Bruce Lee and Wang Xiangzhai felt were important and how they were implemented to improve their fighting, is of even more interest to me.
Last edited by marvin8 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby Bodywork on Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:49 am

It's no longer a question of "style." There is no style that is sufficient. Really, there never has been. Martial arts are many times a crutch holding you back.
Train to be proficient; standing, on your back, punching/kicking, grappling. Train outside your school against people better than you.
Just train. It isn't about the fight. It's a way to live and enjoy life.
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby 100kilos on Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:24 am

Well said dan
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby Tom on Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:46 pm

Bodywork wrote:It's no longer a question of "style." There is no style that is sufficient. Really, there never has been. Martial arts are many times a crutch holding you back.
Train to be proficient; standing, on your back, punching/kicking, grappling. Train outside your school against people better than you.
Just train. It isn't about the fight. It's a way to live and enjoy life.


Nicely stated.

I met a guy--he must be around 70 now, with 60-plus years into the martial arts, with as high a level of gongfu and skills traditionally regarded as "internal" as I've ever encountered over the years among several hundred people from around the world. A slender gent, 178 cm. or so in height, maybe 80-85 kg. He's very proficient in a variety of CIMAs, training as well as fighting with them. He said that for him it's the awareness, mental focus and especially training the principles that should characterize all good Chinese arts, like liu he, to the point where all movements manifest those principles, whenever he moves. The different styles he's trained all emphasize these principles to different degrees, but when he moves or fights it's beyond style. From intensively training to manifest the principles flow the real-time skills like making 240-lb. BJJ black belts feel stuck to the floor in stand-up grappling, no-inch surges of power through the shoulder or through a palm strike, neutralizing and deflecting strikes at the point of contact with barely any movement, sticking and locking the opponent's joints from a single point of contact. He's taught over the years, producing a number of good practitioners and teachers in their own right, but for him it's mostly just about the training, challenging himself and getting better and deeper all the time, polishing the diamond.
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby johnwang on Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:58 pm

Tom wrote:but when he moves or fights it's beyond style.

By using the roundhouse kick, if you let your

1. body rotation to pull your leg, you will get the maximum kicking power. But your body rotation will telegraph your kick. Since there is delay there, your kick will be slow.
2. leg to go first and your body rotation follow with it, you will get the maximum speed. You don't telegraph your kick this way. Your kick can be fast. But since you are not using body rotation, your power will be weak.

Something you do 1. Sometime you do 2. Most of the time you do 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, or ...
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby snafu on Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:47 am

johnwang wrote:
Tom wrote:but when he moves or fights it's beyond style.

By using the roundhouse kick, if you let your

1. body rotation to pull your leg, you will get the maximum kicking power. But your body rotation will telegraph your kick. Since there is delay there, your kick will be slow.
2. leg to go first and your body rotation follow with it, you will get the maximum speed. You don't telegraph your kick this way. Your kick can be fast. But since you are not using body rotation, your power will be weak.

Something you do 1. Sometime you do 2. Most of the time you do 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, or ...


Tactics are definitely an aspect that is beyond style, and they can't be learned by just knowing them. You can hand someone a dictionary full of sophisticated words, but unless they put pen to paper often, that will never teach them how to become a storyteller. The same for martial arts - unless you spar, and unless you spar a lot, you're not going to have the instinctual feel for when to use any of the sophisticated and teh deadly kung fu moves and body principles.
Last edited by snafu on Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby Ron Panunto on Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:46 am

johnwang wrote:
Tom wrote:but when he moves or fights it's beyond style.

By using the roundhouse kick, if you let your

1. body rotation to pull your leg, you will get the maximum kicking power. But your body rotation will telegraph your kick. Since there is delay there, your kick will be slow.
2. leg to go first and your body rotation follow with it, you will get the maximum speed. You don't telegraph your kick this way. Your kick can be fast. But since you are not using body rotation, your power will be weak.

Something you do 1. Sometime you do 2. Most of the time you do 1.25, 1.5, 1.75, or ...


Chen Taiji has two bare hand sets, yi lu & er lu. The first teaches that the body leads the extremities, and the second teaches that the extremities lead the body. I believe that the first teaches and ingrains body unification, and that the second teaches how to fight with that unified body.
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby johnwang on Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:28 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:Chen Taiji has two bare hand sets, yi lu & er lu. The first teaches that the body leads the extremities, and the second teaches that the extremities lead the body. I believe that the first teaches and ingrains body unification, and that the second teaches how to fight with that unified body.

In the following clip, he rotates his waist. let his waist to pull his right leg. It follows the "internal" principle that "body behind arm/leg". But the trade off are:

- There is at least 1/2 to 1 second delay before his waist starts to rotate until his right leg to step forward.
- His waist rotation telegraphs his intention.

The question is, "Does that extra power that he can generated from his body rotation be able to pay off these 2 concerns?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgct0rt ... e=youtu.be
Last edited by johnwang on Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Telling it like it is

Postby Bao on Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:45 pm

johnwang wrote:In the following clip, he rotates his waist. let his waist to pull his right leg. It follows the "internal" principle that "body behind arm/leg".


??? For me it looks like separating body parts from the rest of the body to use them independently.
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