is extreme limb speed an error?

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is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby rojcewiczj on Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:20 pm

After a recent sparring session , I was struck by the realization that extremely fast limbs are a terrible error in applying whole-body power. I found my self moving my limbs very fast as my opponents were doing, trying to get in strikes at range and work in knees at close range. There was all this speed and apparent force, but, for the most part, no one was struck powerfully or thrown down. Of course we were just sparring, and so holding back, but still, there was this realization that all that fast movement of the limbs is really only good for moving the limbs, not for effecting your opponent. In fact, moving you limps very fast, in a sort of twitch contraction, can only be done by isolating local muscles which disconnect you to your whole-body power. But when we move our limbs at a relaxed and steady pace they are very much connected and so can convey whole body power very very easily. The torso can be moved quickly but the limps should not be moved as fast as they can be moved through isolation. Distance should be covered with the help of the body movement. Again the torso runs no risk of disconnecting through speed. What is extreme limb speed good for? for show? for sport? All the energy is wasted in making the movement happen and very little is left for your opponent. This thinking is quite a turn around for me and so I would very much appreciate every ones feedback. If you throw something, your hand is always going to move slower than it can with nothing in your hand , and the heavy the thing you throw is, the slower your hand is going to move when throwing it.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:08 am

Its called timing.
Whole body power is derived from whole body movement.
The problem is one of timing....
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:21 am

windwalker wrote:Its called timing.
Whole body power is derived from whole body movement.
The problem is one of timing....


+1. Agree to 100% 8-)


rojcewiczj wrote:extremely fast limbs are a terrible error in applying whole-body power.


I don't agree. Not even if you mean isolated limbs/arms movement. The only thing that matter is the impact, when fist meets the opponent's body. You can start with a perfectly disconnected arm, and yet let the body meet up with the fist upon impact and use whole body movement to strike your opponent. It's about coordination, and again, it's about timing.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby C.J.W. on Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:33 am

In my experience, a high-level CMAist should be able to execute a strike with fast limb speed and STILL be able to put whole-body power behind it. The body mechanics involved are more advanced than the conventional application of whole-body power where the limbs are connected and driven by dantien throughout the execution (e.g., Xingyi's Beng Chuan).

Keeping the limbs connected and dantien-driven at all times when throwing a strike is powerful for sure, but is slower and more telegraphic compared to simply moving from the limb -- similar to the differences between a cross (whole-body power) and jab (movement from the shoulder down). Ideally, you want to be able to deliver a strike that has the speed advantage of a jab but still packs a wallop like a cross. And like Bao said, it's about starting with a disconnected arm for maximum speed first, and then allow the arm to reconnect to the core at the moment of impact.

In Bagua, the body method to achieve this is called "feng he" (to seperate/join). Basically, once you have acquired whole-body connection, the next stage of development would be learning how to "disconnect" certain parts of the body from the dantien, and reconnect them at will depending on the situation.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby yeniseri on Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:15 am

It is an error is one is just "fast" for its own sake!
One's goal is to respond to the contact made by the opponent (whether by feeling, "sensing" (behavioural context) or other apparent logical strategy.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:36 am

I don't mean to say that I think that the arms or legs should only move with ones core movement, but that they shouldn't be moved so fast as to be energetically disconnected; otherwise you have to stop your self at or before contact and then apply power. If don't move the limps too fast then they can move quickly while still remaining expressive of the whole-body power. In terms of strategy, it means that you use your body and limb positioning effectively to put yourself where you need to be in order to apply power, not trying to send your fist rocketing at your opponent from two feet away, but waiting for your fist to be quite close to your opponent before striking.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 am

Classic throwing hands, no connection, body is not there when the weapon arrives. High tension movement, lack of connection with no control, this type of sparring is counter productive it only shows that you are not relaxed and your training has not carried over into your function.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:54 pm

I agree, and I think the idea that you should try to move your arms and legs as fast as you can promotes this sort of non-productive training. Why? Because if you are trying to produce any useful result with your action, then the speed of your action must governed by the rate at which your mass can be transferred. Too slow and you'll be holding your mass back, too fast and you'll be leaving your mass behind.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby everything on Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:17 pm

I think I slightly disagree (although everyone agrees on timing), but mainly with the idea you always want whole-body power, not necessarily with the idea that limb speed might disconnect your power (I probably agree with you). If you look at someone like Mayweather, Jr., it's his reading of an opponent and situation that was much, much faster. But limb speed with some bit of power buys time to do that reading. There are always exceptions. Going way back to one of my favorite mma fights, Arlovski was kicking Fedor's ass with superior strike speed, until he decided to flying knee himself into Fedor's punch. That was arguably only a decision error. His better limb speed should've let him win that fight. He was surely winning on all scorecards. If we're not talking about sports, I'm not sure.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby johnwang on Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:29 pm

Reasons that you want to move your hand fast:

- The moment that your hand makes contact on your opponent's face, the moment that you put your body weight behind it.
- If you want to use your fingers to slide across your opponent's eyes, or use palm to smash on his nose, the power is not important.
- Your purpose is not in your punch but the "pull after the punch".
- You use fast hands to confuse your opponent.
- ...

A Baji teacher told me that most Baji guys have bad temper. In their mind, everything is "full power". But they find out that in real life, the "full power' is not always possible.

If we define:

0 - slow speed, full power.
1 - fast speed, less power.

In the real time, we don't see 0, or 1, but 0.25, 0.5, 0.75, ...
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Subitai on Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:29 pm

rojcewiczj,
You kinda answer your own question when you say you were "holding back". A bullet is small and definitely disconnected, but why is it deadly? = Speed.
It's like asking if a hard back fist moving with the speed of a whip has the potential to hurt someone? Obviously it can and it does so quite easily.

The part where some people can be misguided about body connection and speed is not only understanding the torso use....but also the opposite limbs. Where there is retraction the should also be extension and vice versa.

This is basic Kung Fu across the board.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:21 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:... the arms or legs ... they shouldn't be moved so fast as to be energetically disconnected; otherwise you have to stop your self at or before contact and then apply power.


Still don't agree. However fast you can punch, there's no need to stop or slow down to connect the body structure. Just like JW said: "The moment that your hand makes contact on your opponent's face, the moment that you put your body weight behind it."

The body should follow up while you strike, preferably just upon impact. This means that your posture, positioning of angle and distance, must be in posture before striking. Regardless if you strike slow or fast, you must still be in position so the fist can be correcly aligned with the rest of the body when the fist meets the body. If you, by your posture and positioning, have the alignment on impact already clear before you strike, the body won't even need to make any big adjustments, because the correct alignment will be there when you connect with the target. You can strike very fast and very relaxed and still get the whole body support behind the punch if the alignment from foot through dantian, centerline and spine is correct. I think that any XY practitioner would agree with this.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby windwalker on Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:11 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:Why? Because if you are trying to produce any useful result with your action, then the speed of your action must governed by the rate at which your mass can be transferred. Too slow and you'll be holding your mass back, too fast and you'll be leaving your mass behind.


Depends on the method, why and how.

If you use your mass, it must overcome the other in order to affect it. IME This in itself is already slow.
If you use the force/energy generated the other has to deal with the force/energy with out being able to interact with your own mass.
This allows one to be very quick, change and neutralize the others force while still being able to express force from any point or position.

It does require one to know and understand "timing"

Waves involve the transport of energy without the transport of matter. In conclusion, a wave can be described as a disturbance that travels through a medium, transporting energy from one location (its source) to another location without transporting matter. Image


A batter is able to transport energy from her to the softball by means of a bat. The batter applies a force to the bat, thus imparting energy to the bat in the form of kinetic energy. The bat then carries this energy to the softball and transports the energy to the softball upon collision. In this example, a bat is used to transport energy from the player to the softball. However, unlike wave phenomena, this phenomenon involves the transport of matter.

The bat must move from its starting location to the contact location in order to transport energy. In a wave phenomenon, energy can move from one location to another, yet the particles of matter in the medium return to their fixed position. A wave transports its energy without transporting matter.

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/w ... -is-a-Wave

As I use the term "whole body movement" it is used with the idea of being able to make a wave within the body allowing it to be expressed at the point of contact. Very little movement needed, does not require full commitment of ones "mass" to interact with the others.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby johnwang on Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:35 pm

The best example is the Taiji "brush knee".

- Your finger tips touch on your opponent's chest.
- Your palm drop down, and
- Your body weight is added in.

The nice thing about this approach is if your finger tips can't touch on your opponent's body, you don't need to drop your palm, and you don't need to add your body weight behind it. You can save a lot of unnecessary power generation that only "strike into the thin air".

It's very easy to train this on a heavy bag - the body chase hand method.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:06 pm

When I speak of extreme limb speed, I mean in terms of generating a lot of speed on the limb without relation to any external resistance. If you try to hit something with the same limb speed that you can generate without the target, then the energy you use to generate that speed is largely wasted and has little application. If you focus on the timing of acceleration used to actually hit a heavy bag I think you'll find that your limb doesn't spend much time moving very fast, but rather, at the last moment there is a sense of acceleration. If you take away the heavy bag I find that my hand wasn't going very fast, but that there is an appropriate acceleration. For this reason, I find slower movements are more powerful than fast one, because the way the body works to accelerate itself in relation to resistance is not like trying to move your hand as fast as you can. It is more like a wave crashing, where he moment one feels the speed is beginning to manifest it is already being expressed as a force on the opponent. The force is never manifested fully on my own body.
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