is extreme limb speed an error?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby rojcewiczj on Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:19 pm

When applying whole-body power, excessive distance must be removed without using strength. Excessive distance creates the occasion for excessive limp speed, which is a waste of strength. When strength is expressed sufficiently without excessive distance, then the whole body power will be applied. The issue is really in the conservation of strength for the moment of expression. How to move the body to quickly assume the intended position in which the use of strength will apply the power of the whole body. Of course if you use your strength before your whole body is in position then your strength will not express your full power.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby johnwang on Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:31 pm

In the XingYi system, the "training" and "fighting" are different.

In

- training, you use body push shoulder, shoulder push elbow, elbow push hand.
- fighting, your hand will go first. Your elbow chase hand, shoulder chase elbow, body chase shoulder.

When you clap both hands together, that's "fighting".

Image
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:36 pm

Johnwang, you demonstrate another difference between internal and external, you choose to believe it can't be done, internalists choose to believe it can. Dr. Fish I'm sure by now you, like I, know internal and external are no more than how one approaches the training.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:38 pm

[quote="johnwang"]In the XingYi system, the "training" and "fighting" are different.

In

- training, you use body push shoulder, shoulder push elbow, elbow push hand.
- fighting, your hand will go first. Your elbow chase hand, shoulder chase elbow, body chase shoulder.

When you clap both hands together, that's "fighting".

[img]https://s1.postimg.org/9smt4l2ldb/XY_principle.jpg[/img][/quote]


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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Trick on Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:39 pm

johnwang wrote:In the XingYi system, the "training" and "fighting" are different.

In

- training, you use body push shoulder, shoulder push elbow, elbow push hand.
- fighting, your hand will go first. Your elbow chase hand, shoulder chase elbow, body chase shoulder.

Long time ago i found that "your hand will go first. Your elbow chase hand, shoulder chase elbow, body chase shoulder" is the way to go 'in XYQ training'. That way the training adapts quick to the sparring/fighting
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Trick on Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:50 pm

johnwang wrote:
kenneth fish wrote:John Wang: Abbot Heng Yueh 恆月法師 who resided in a small temple on 姆指山 could do this (I learned Buddhism and Lohan Shaolin from him). Henry Leung of Foshou YongChun 佛手詠春拳 could as well. I met several Taiwan White Crane teachers (including one still actively teaching in Jilong) who had that level of skill. Meng Zhaoshun could bring you to your knees or knock you out cold from zero distance. Oh, wait, none of these are "internal" arts, right?

Wanderingdragon wrote:when this power is well trained it can be issued from a hairs distance,...

To generate power in

- 3 inch is possible.
- 1 inch is difficult.
- 1 hair distance (0.004 inches) is near impossible.

I assume we are talking about 1 hair distance or several hairs distance here. I had many lunches with Meng Zhaoshun, his wife Fu Shuyuan, and my teacher in Chun Wha San Chan Muslium restaurent. Never heard him ever talked about "1 hair distance power generation".

IMO, the human body has certain limitation. No matter how hard that you may train, there is a boundary that you just cannot go beyond it.

I have meet Karatekas in Japan that almost broke the Makiwara(striking board) in half with powerful punches, and once I met a (Chen)TJQ teacher in Beijing who showed on me some 'scary' Inch and hair distance striking power. But it's all being done on static targets, could they do it in if in a fight, I have no idea.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby middleway on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:18 am

I have meet Karatekas in Japan that almost broke the Makiwara(striking board) in half with powerful punches, and once I met a (Chen)TJQ teacher in Beijing who showed on me some 'scary' Inch and hair distance striking power. But it's all being done on static targets, could they do it in if in a fight, I have no idea.


Some IMA people have truely scary scary power, but many can only do it when you let them. Even basic agility skill can make all that power less useful. I have see this a number of times.

Ref limb speed, As Ian said, it isnt an error. I have met some people with legit whole body power who strike very fast. However, speed is a perception thing, and if someones timing is impecable then they can seem much faster than they actually are.
Last edited by middleway on Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:04 am

rojcewiczj wrote:After a recent sparring session , I was struck by the realization that extremely fast limbs are a terrible error in applying whole-body power.



Many different ways and methods of transferring energy "punching"

One might try and understand what "they" mean when they say "whole body" power and then see
what or why this did not occur at a high rate of speed when needed.

For people I've worked with having what sounds like the same problem the basic problem was one of timing.
Inner and outer timing which will accord with what ever style, method one practices with or uses.

A good place to start is with the stepping. "footwork"
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:32 pm

John Wang: Meng may not have spoken about it, but he was certainly capable of it (and had no qualms about demonstrating). I think you know Delon Tan - you could ask him about his experience on the receiving end of Meng's demonstration.
Last edited by kenneth fish on Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:35 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote: Dr. Fish I'm sure by now you, like I, know internal and external are no more than how one approaches the training.


I have been posting and writing exactly that since day one - as I've said before, some of the best "internal" skills I have ever seen were demonstrated by teachers of "Shaolin" systems.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby johnwang on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:25 pm

kenneth fish wrote:John Wang: Meng may not have spoken about it, but he was certainly capable of it (and had no qualms about demonstrating). I think you know Delon Tan - you could ask him about his experience on the receiving end of Meng's demonstration.

If you can hurt your opponent with "1 hair distance punch", why do you even need to train anything else such as kick, lock, throw? There will be only one CMA system on earth. Everybody will want to train that style.

What's wrong with my logic here?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:40 pm

What is wrong with your logic? Plenty. The ability to express force at short distances is just that - being able to generate power and transfer it to another object with little visible effort or movement. It is not the ability to close the gap, avoid and deliver strikes, or any of the myriad skills that allow one to utilize the ability to generate force. Bear in mind that too this skill is the end product of being able to generate power throughout a movement, not just at the end of the movement. This skill is not unlike a bomb - useless unless there is a means to deliver it.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby johnwang on Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:18 pm

If "short distance power" is that powerful, do you think Chinese government will want all his boxers to train it in order to win the Olympic gold metals? More than that, all the boxers on earth will want to come to China (or Taiwan) to train this.

There must be a reason that none of this have happened yet. What can be that reason?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby kenneth fish on Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:40 pm

Because the amount of time and training involved is considerable (several years at best), and it requires both intellectual work and innate talent. Not exactly a recipe for teaching the masses. Furthermore (as you know) this is not the sort of training that most teachers would want to teach every student. Lastly - if ones teacher does not have this level of skill, then it is not accessible. How many teachers did you know who had the level of skill of Meng Zhaoshun, Zhong Fusheng, or Zhang Dekui? And how many really top level students did they produce? The questions answer themselves.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Strange on Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:07 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:After a recent sparring session , I was struck by the realization that extremely fast limbs are a terrible error in applying whole-body power. I found my self moving my limbs very fast as my opponents were doing, trying to get in strikes at range and work in knees at close range. There was all this speed and apparent force, but, for the most part, no one was struck powerfully or thrown down. Of course we were just sparring, and so holding back, but still, there was this realization that all that fast movement of the limbs is really only good for moving the limbs, not for effecting your opponent. In fact, moving you limps very fast, in a sort of twitch contraction, can only be done by isolating local muscles which disconnect you to your whole-body power. But when we move our limbs at a relaxed and steady pace they are very much connected and so can convey whole body power very very easily. The torso can be moved quickly but the limps should not be moved as fast as they can be moved through isolation. Distance should be covered with the help of the body movement. Again the torso runs no risk of disconnecting through speed. What is extreme limb speed good for? for show? for sport? All the energy is wasted in making the movement happen and very little is left for your opponent. This thinking is quite a turn around for me and so I would very much appreciate every ones feedback. If you throw something, your hand is always going to move slower than it can with nothing in your hand , and the heavy the thing you throw is, the slower your hand is going to move when throwing it.


if you feel that speed is detrimental, have you tried moving slower than
you opponent and getting hit?
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