is extreme limb speed an error?

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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby klonk on Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:33 pm

Strange wrote:
if you feel that speed is detrimental, have you tried moving slower than
you opponent and getting hit?


That is a very sound point.

In Western fencing, it is a maxim that "the hand leads and the body follows." Some Eastern IMA proponents feel that transgresses the principle that everything moves at once. I do not see any important contradiction there, but you know how people obsess over principles.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Trick on Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:28 pm

johnwang wrote:
There must be a reason that none of this have happened yet. What can be that reason?

Most probably because it is not applicable on a fighter in fighting mood in a fight...
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby rojcewiczj on Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:06 am

Again, the body can and should move as quickly as possible to obtain advantages position from which to express power through the appropriate use of strength. My point is that moving your limbs as fast as you can across distances is not an appropriate use of strength, distances should be reduced and controlled through body movement so that the limbs express power into the opponent, and not only towards the opponent.

how many times have seen sparring and demos in which there is a lot of apparent limb speed with little to no effect on the one being struck? It requires a different approach in order to powerfully effect your opponent through your actions, not merely make a show of speed.
Last edited by rojcewiczj on Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Strange on Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:14 pm

speaking in "general" layman terms, a human has 4 limbs
which one are you talking about?

if you are proposing a general principle statement
there should not be such ambiguity.

there is also the assumption that speed disrupt
body alignment and control.
can you prove unequivocally that it is true for everyone?
and for every case?
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Strange on Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:17 pm

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=47&v=jkhpZoPOfZI[/youtube]

his entire person is moving faster than a repeated
is this speed or not? have alignment and control or not?
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:51 pm

Embedding did not work can't view the clip.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Trip on Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:13 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:Embedding did not work can't view the clip.


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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:23 pm

I know that it's possible to defeat someone who is faster. However, I've never heard anyone say he'd rather be slower.

Imo, the only time that being faster is an error is when a person's technique arrives too early or too late. That is a function of timing, not speed.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:30 pm

I know that it's possible to defeat someone who is faster. However, I've never heard anyone say he'd rather be slower.

Imo, the only time that being faster is an error is when a person's technique arrives too early or too late. That is a function of timing, not speed.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:34 pm

My teacher always touted Muhammad Ali as the only fighter he saw using whole body power, he credited the speed and power of his jab with his connected movement. He always pointed out how his feet and hands worked together while he danced. He advised that the controversial " phantom punch " that knocked out Sonny Liston was short and sharp and fully connected. Look at the structure from the back leg to the fist when the strike lands, its text book. It is also a great illustration and advisory to those studying internal arts for fighting. Fighting does not look like form, learn the skills, technique, and study the principle and foundation, by practicing form. Then it will manifest when fighting. Boxers are not just throwing punches in the air while shadow boxing, they are practicing their form out of sequence.

https://youtu.be/kSgPvscC09k
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Steve James on Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:39 pm

I know that it's possible to defeat someone who is faster. However, I've never heard anyone say he'd rather be slower.

Imo, the only time that being faster is an error is when a person's technique arrives too early or too late. That is a function of timing, not speed.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby rojcewiczj on Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:43 pm

The clip of Muhammad Ali is a great example of the point I'm trying to make. He moves his body very quickly, gets his hands in position very quickly and then exerts strength to express power from a short distance. This way of moving is faster than fast limbs, because it covers distance more effectively. He is not throwing his punches as fast as he can across distance to gain maximum speed on his fist. He is expressing power with immediacy through quick positioning and well timed exertion. If one thinks in terms of getting their limbs to maximum speed before making contact, you will not be able to manifest this control or power
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Strange on Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:50 pm

Strange wrote:[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=47&v=jkhpZoPOfZI[/youtube]

his entire person is moving faster than a repeated jab
is this speed or not? have alignment and control or not?


my bad
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Strange on Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:12 pm

for your consideration,

Alignment is not the alignment
meaning we are after the feeling of alignment
once we have it, like riding a bike, if body is out
of alignment we can adjust and make the feeling of alignment
and the force can still be "issued" in a "proper" manner.

so however, your opponent come into contact with you
the reaction is your feeling of alignment come and force shoot out.
some ppl (who are not cima) define martial arts as reaction.
i think it is very elegant and succinct.

the 5 words of lhbf say "upon contact, enemy fall flat"
i think it is this meaning
i do not think thinking about this in terms of speed is correct.
for the high hand, very fast can make it look slow, but you just cannot get him.
For Ali, he can make heavy to look very light
this is using chinese ying-yang concept of making opposite manifest in one body.
it is mesmerising to watch

cheers all
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Ian on Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:28 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:After a recent sparring session , I was struck by the realization that extremely fast limbs are a terrible error in applying whole-body power.


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