is extreme limb speed an error?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby johnwang on Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:53 pm

Here is another example. It's a 8 moves combo with 3 forward step footwork.

1. Your right hand try to make contact on your opponent's right arm. If succeed,
2. your left hand try to make contact on your opponent's right elbow joint. If succeed,
3. your right palm edge strike on your opponent's face. If your opponent blocks with his left arm,
4. your left hand re-block his left arm. If succeed,
5. your right palm strike on his face. If he blocks with his right arm,
6. your right hand pull his right arm toward you. If succeed,
7. you use your left hand to take over. If succeed,
8. you use the back of your right hand to strike on your opponent's face.

Your next move will depend on the success of your previous move. In 8 hand moves, there are only 3 strikes (3, 5, 8). The other 5 moves are block or re-block (1, 2, 4, 6, 7).

In this example, you can see that not all fast hand move are striking. Some fast hand move just try to set up your next move. Some people may call this method as "push with the fist (or palm)".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ9FDTA ... e=youtu.be
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Steve James on Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:28 pm

It's like the old question: "would you rather get hit by a 1 lb baseball going 100 mph or a 100 lb baseball going 1 mph?" Ignoring the math, which baseball would be easier to hit, and which would be easier to avoid? So, imo, the question of limb speed has to be put int the context of what one is intending to accomplish with that particular limb.

Afa striking, "If" the object is to apply force on an opponent, faster is generally better. However, it only matters if and how contact is made. The amount of energy that one builds up in terms of technique is irrelevant if misses the opponent.

Arm before body, imo, works fine for striking; but, can put one out of position for a throw. Anyway, I was taught that the hand movement is generated by the body. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd say that Dempsey's "falling punch" depended on the body movement. Tyson's punching also depends on legs and waist movement over arm movement, but his punches are fast enough.

Foreman's punches were dead slow, almost laughable. People he was able to hit often went to sleep immediately. Larry Holmes, on the other hand, had a lightning jab, better than Ali's. But Ali had the footwork. It's all relative ... "until ya gits hit."

Afa preference, I'd argue that a 150 lb person using his or her bodyweight alone can generate a 150 lb punch. Then, depending on body part, as little as 15 lbs psi can break a bone or rupture an organ. If the opponent helps --by moving into the blow-- that force can be substantially increased. Hey, there's a reason for learning where the spleen, liver and kidneys are located.

Of course, a 250 lb guy has way more potential in that regard. And, I don't think that the 150 lb guy has a great chance against Lesnar or Bob Sapp. However, clearly neither of them know how to punch efficiently. If they did, ... But, ordinary mortals like us, I mean me, would probably need to use body weight to the fullest advantage, even if some speed is sacrificed.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Ian on Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:17 am

rojcewiczj wrote:After a recent sparring session , I was struck by the realization that extremely fast limbs are a terrible error in applying whole-body power.


No...

Lomachenko is fast and coordinated.

You're just unable to do it.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby LaoDan on Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:17 am

F=ma (Force = mass x acceleration). For the largest force production, one would want the most mass possible moving as fast as possible. But there are trade-offs. A large mass is more difficult to get moving fast (accelerate), which is why lower weight class fighters are typically faster than the heavier weight classes. But the heavier weight classes tend to pack more power into their punches because they have more mass, even though they are slower.

In our arts we try to emphasize “whole body” in order to increase the effective mass, but we also do not want to be slowed down and therefore we emphasize “relaxation” (at least in TJQ).

In solo forms, the hand movement should typically be generated by the body (force is generated in the feet, developed in the legs, directed by the waist and expressed in the hands). This allows us to practice connecting our entire mass, from the feet to the hands. We also practice being relaxed in order to avoid having places where the power transmission may be impeded by stiffness.

In applications, however, one should typically have the hands lead the body (“body chase hand method”). Because one forgets themselves and follows the opponent (at least in TJQ), it is the point of contact (the opponent’s movements) that dictates the practitioner’s movements. The body needs to have the proper structure to connect the hands to the feet upon impact for increased power.

Some martial arts practice tensing their bodies briefly at the instant of contact, thus making the body ‘connected’ (or one mass) at that instant of contact, and then relaxing the tension immediately afterwards in order to regain their changeability. But it is different in TJQ as I understand it. We want to remain relaxed throughout, but emphasize alignment in our practice in order to have the same whole body power but without the instant of tension that other styles practice.

This topic does not have much written about it as far as I am aware, but some Chen stylists have addressed it. Due to the scarcity of written information translated into English, my understanding is likely somewhat faulty. Additional information would be appreciated.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby kenneth fish on Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:44 am

I am always a bit surprised when I see this or similar topics. Questions like this do not come up with someone who has trained to box. Speed and power are not mutually exclusive - it is all in the training - body mechanics and timing. If your cannot throw a fast punch with enough power to do damage, then your training is lacking.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby rojcewiczj on Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:03 pm

That's because a boxer is going to throw punches no matter what. An internal martial artist is only going to throw a punch that they know will hit their opponent in such a way as to be decisive. It is exactly my point to draw attention to the way that strikes are often treated as having reality seperate from how they effect the opponent. At a higher level, maximum speed is never realized, as the energy is expressed within the opponent and never shot meaninglessly into the air.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:28 pm

rojcewiczj wrote: At a higher level, maximum speed is never realized, as the energy is expressed within the opponent and never shot meaninglessly into the air.


Speed should be something unrehearsed, unforced and perfectly natural. Speed is not something you force. If you express power before making contact with the opponent it means that you are forcing the strike, i.e. it will be slower than necessary. If the limb is perfectly empty without any obstacles that could hinder the movement, from outside or from within, then the limb can move faster. If you practice IMA for a very long time, you should naturally develop a pretty high speed for your punches, because IMA practice is designed to train away any kind of obstacle that could prevent your fist from moving spontaneous and without resistance.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby kenneth fish on Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:10 pm

rojcewiczj: Your reply tells me that you know little about boxers and boxing. Boxers are very judicious in their timing and placement of punches - they do not punch for the sake of punching because they are very aware that every time they punch they are giving their opponent an opening.

An internal martial artist is only going to throw a punch that they know will hit their opponent in such a way as to be decisive


Maybe in theory. Or in the movies.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby johnwang on Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:09 pm

If your opponent moves in toward you, speed is not that important. You may just raise your fist and your opponent's face will meet it. When you move in toward your opponent while your opponent is static or is moving back, speed will be important. In other words, speed is more important in offense than in defense.

When you use speed in offense and throw 3 punches, the 1st and 2nd punch can be used to set up for the 3rd punch. When you use your fast punch to set up something else, you don't expect it will work all the time.

1. Rear-wheel drive - body push arm.
2. Front-wheel drive - body chase arm.
3. 4-wheel drive - body and arm move at the same time.

Is 4-wheel drive model possible in CMA?
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Ian on Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:39 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:That's because a boxer is going to throw punches no matter what. An internal martial artist is only going to throw a punch that they know will hit their opponent in such a way as to be decisive. It is exactly my point to draw attention to the way that strikes are often treated as having reality seperate from how they effect the opponent. At a higher level, maximum speed is never realized, as the energy is expressed within the opponent and never shot meaninglessly into the air.


If you think that boxers are happy throwing shots "meaninglessly into the air' and "no matter what", you really have no clue.

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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby rojcewiczj on Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:18 am

I don't mean to say that any martial artist or sport fighter intentionally throws meaningless strikes, but that there are varying degrees of expectation in martial arts for what amount of force is realized with or without contact. I mean to say that there is an an expectation in boxing that you throw punches, as there is an expectation in wrestling that you don't throw punches, as there is an expectation in Muay Thai that you use round kicks, etc. I think these sporting expectations all tend work within the expectation that you have as much limb force as possible, meaning that you are trying to move your limbs as fast as you can with or without resistance. What I have been working on in my own training, is the way of generating the force from the core mass which is expressed through the limbs, meaning I am not trying to move my limbs as fast as I can, although they do end up moving quite quickly at times.

I spend about six months training under Master Wu Nanfang outside of Shaolin temple.
This was about five years ago, and I am just know coming to better understand the way he moves. At first I thought we were slowing down our moves for
the sake of slowness, but now I see that this is actually the speed at which application occurs. It doesn't looks fast from the outside, but it all happens in an instant when you touch. To understand this speed is essential for understanding whole body power, it is whole-body power without pre-conceived expectation for how that power is expressed.


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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:51 am

Extreme limb speed is speed out control, if you always know where your strike is and have the ability to change when necessary it's fine, but if you can't stop the momentum of your intent, you cannot change to the need of the situation. No timing will protect you from getting hit because you are not in control, this kind of speed is ONLY possible through whole body connection.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Steve James on Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:59 am

Which of this guy's punches aren't whole-body? Anyway, Freddie Roach is a pretty good coach.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmgHY6rk0QE
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby rojcewiczj on Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:34 pm

Because every one of his punches are hitting the target, whole-body power is being used with every punch. The question is how much of his effort is on trying to create hand speed and how much is on driving from his core. It is a matter of degrees, of how much energy we put in and where we put it.
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Re: is extreme limb speed an error?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:36 pm

Sorry, I won't argue, boxers hit very hard, boxers put their body into their punch, boxers can knock you the f*#k out, boxers do not use whole body machanics, boxers do not practice whole body connection.
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