Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Postby Bao on Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:23 pm

RobP3 wrote:I was told that YLC's main weapon was the spear, though maybe the spear blade was removed after that accident. There's at least one Yang line that still has the halberd


I guess you mean kwandao and not halberd? Halberd is not the same as the kwan dao/guandao. What is usually referred to as halberd is "ji" type of pole weapons. This is the most common one:

Image

I actually do have a book on Tai Chi weapons that have a chapter on the halberd with both solo and partner exercises. But it's not a traditional Tai Chi weapon.

YLC's favourite weapon was indeed the spear. Why people say that Yang Tai Chi focus on staff is because staff and spear is the same thing. It's the same use but the spear is limited to one side. I don't believe he learned the spear in the Chen village, but probably earlier as a part of his Shaolin training and then integrated it into his Tai Chi.

The Guandao is said to have been Chen Wangting's favourite weapon, but the common claim that his art was based on this weapon is a bit far stretched as he studied and collected many different things. Also, the original small frame doesn't have the large movements from the large fram that people claim symbolising the use of the kwan dao, so from this perspective, it has very little use for the kwandao.
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Re: Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:01 pm

I learnt the spear forms from a direct student of YCF as both solo and two man sets but not the pole shaking that has become so popular
We also have solo pole and two man sets in our system ,they were quite popular in Penang
I would love to know what yang lineage teaches the kwando,I have never heard that before
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Re: Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Postby Ron Panunto on Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:37 pm

Bao wrote:
RobP3 wrote:I was told that YLC's main weapon was the spear, though maybe the spear blade was removed after that accident. There's at least one Yang line that still has the halberd


I guess you mean kwandao and not halberd? Halberd is not the same as the kwan dao/guandao. What is usually referred to as halberd is "ji" type of pole weapons. This is the most common one:

Image

I actually do have a book on Tai Chi weapons that have a chapter on the halberd with both solo and partner exercises. But it's not a traditional Tai Chi weapon.

YLC's favourite weapon was indeed the spear. Why people say that Yang Tai Chi focus on staff is because staff and spear is the same thing. It's the same use but the spear is limited to one side. I don't believe he learned the spear in the Chen village, but probably earlier as a part of his Shaolin training and then integrated it into his Tai Chi.

The Guandao is said to have been Chen Wangting's favourite weapon, but the common claim that his art was based on this weapon is a bit far stretched as he studied and collected many different things. Also, the original small frame doesn't have the large movements from the large fram that people claim symbolising the use of the kwan dao, so from this perspective, it has very little use for the kwandao.


My guandao form is from Chen small frame and my teacher calls it "da Dao" or "big knife" as it is just a dao (saber) mounted on a long pole.
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Re: Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:48 pm

I have also heard Chen people call it the spring and autumn broadsword which makes sence to me
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Re: Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Postby edededed on Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:26 pm

Yang Shouzhong's line has the halberd - "ji" (as in the picture). I've not heard of "ji" in other taijiquan lines, but some bagua lines have it. Similar to a Western halberd, you can pierce with it, hook with it, chop with it, etc., so it is more complex than spear in that sense. (In bagua, Liu Dekuan was famous for this weapon.)

The "chunqiudadao" (spring and autumn big saber) or "guangongdadao" or "guandao" etc. is more like a glaive I guess? Chen style taiji, many bagua lines, etc. have this weapon.
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Re: Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Postby Bao on Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:48 pm

edededed wrote:Yang Shouzhong's line has the halberd - "ji" (as in the picture). I've not heard of "ji" in other taijiquan lines,


The tai chi book with the halberd instructions is this very thin book:
https://www.amazon.com/Tai-weapons-Weap ... 451&sr=1-3 (It has the jian, dao, spear and halberd)

I know nothing about Dr Tseng Ju-Pai except that he was student (disciple?) of Yang Cheng Fu.

Tseng performing YCF Tai Chi: https://youtu.be/L-GJ70DAJjU
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Re: Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:52 am

I have both his books in Chinese and English
His book on form is called Primodial Pugalism
It has a large pullout with YCF doing the form
It has a few applications as well
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Re: Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Postby RobP3 on Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:55 am

"According to Grandmaster Yeung Sau Chung, the Tai Chi Halbert has been a Yang Family heirloom for four generations. He told my father Gin Soon Chu that the Tai Chi Halbert has only been transmitted among bloodline members of the Yang Family"

http://www.gstaichi.org/english/halbert.php
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Re: Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Postby Bao on Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:11 am

Thanks for the link.
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Re: Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Postby RobP3 on Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:17 am

Bao wrote:Thanks for the link.


No prob :) It's the only place I ever saw that, I think there was a clip of GSC doing part of the form somewhere
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Re: Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Postby Trick on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:37 am

Invincible Yang(1 st) is depicted using the Guandao while his sons used spears, this is from (probably) the highly fictional stories of the "Generals of the Yang family" the characters where real persons living about a millennia ago. There is an "invincible yang temple" in Beijing built shortly after Yang Ye's(invincible Yang) death.....And there is a "Yang Family Ancestral Hall in Dai County, Shanxi province built in 1329 which was the location of the Yang family when Yang Ye was serving the Northern Han Kingdom......Now there are millions named Yang but with all this talk about Halberd's, Spears and Guandao's could it be that the famed Taiji Yang family are the descendants of the famed Yang generals?....Also interesting, Yang Ye's 5th son became a Buddhist monk and as such he no longer practiced the spear but instead developed staff/pole"combat" excercises that today( still(supposedly) is practiced by the HungGar system
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Re: Why is TCC form put together a certain way

Postby Trick on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:42 am

With the above story are the Yang family martial abillity actually the source of Chen-Taiji,Xin/XingYiquan and evens some southern Chinese style's of gongfu:) ?....well what about that :)
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