Qi Creation

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Qi Creation

Postby BruceP on Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:38 am

cloudz wrote:Nice post Charles.


Yeah, nice edit
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby cloudz on Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:08 am

BruceP wrote:
charles wrote:
willie wrote:All those theories are just a replacement for the fact that they do not and cannot make real Tai Chi work because they do not have the proper instructions.


Funny, that's largely what Brucep stated


Actually, willie and I couldn't be more opposite in our thinking on that.

The unhewn log already knows how to cast an arrow.

Theory compounds difficulty and pretty much forces the seeker to mistake the technique for the goal.

The only section of stave that is worth a bow is the one that already knows how to move like a bow - all the rest of it is unnecessary for practicality, and unrealistic for application. TJQ is simple and direct when it has no applications or techniques, and when it appeals to the section of someone's being which allows them the creative latitude to explore their personal tjq without thinking too much about it.

TJQ is accessible to anyone in quite short order, and with only a basic repertiore of insight and repeatable method, because most people have it already.

You can't really teach anyone anything - you can only bring out what's already there.


Hey Bruce,

I read something recently that i think links in with this narrative, it was in Scott Phillips "possible origins" book. Something like to learn an art.. takes a very long time. learn fighting not so much. Both? well who knows man. But if the goals is fighting, then really stand up fighting and wrestling can be attained relatively quickly and if conditions made right, fairly intuitively - depending on the person too.

Basically I agree with you - TCMA has too much "other stuff" to worry about other than simply the goal of fighting. That's half the problem right there, if not more.
But it's only a problem if you can't recognise the situation and position yourself accordingly. Asking things like "what are my goals?" etc.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby charles on Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:52 am

cloudz wrote:Nice post Charles.


Thanks.

Here's a million dollar question for you.

On which side do you fall on the question of the Primary moving part; dantien or kua
Dantien as per the Chen village folks etc. or kua as described by Chen Zhonghua/ practical method.


Here's my $.02 answer. ;)

You've misunderstood the Practical Method. They are both dan tian centric, but taught in different ways, emphasizing different things at different times.

[quote]Incidently do the other branches of Chen Fake lineage do it like Chen Zhonghua describes ?

Chen Zhonghua is teaching his interpretation of Hong's Practical Method. Others practicing the Practical Method do it that way, within differences in interpretation and personal stylization. Otherwise, yes and no. There are similarities, and differences - some of them large differences - amongst all of the Chen Fake offshoots/variations I've been exposed to. Some have more icing, others more cake.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby charles on Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:53 am

BruceP wrote:
cloudz wrote:Nice post Charles.


Yeah, nice edit


Thank you.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby cloudz on Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:10 am

Charles,

Firstly, I owe you another thanks for some links/ videos you posted in a previous silk reeling thread - if you recall the 3D discussion. I appreciated you taking the time to post them and I think I got something from the discussion and the clips posted. But I can only seem to take in bits at a time on this subject so it's always a work in progress. But I think I got your point about 2D vs. 3D. Maybe, or maybe in another few years ;)

charles wrote:
Here's my $.02 answer. ;)

You've misunderstood the Practical Method. They are both dan tian centric, but taught in different ways, emphasizing different things at different times.


Interesting answer.

if that's the case i would have to question the lengthy article written that was pretty clear (or so it seemed) that the rotation of the kua, as defined by the article, was the first and foremost 'place of' movement. Do you not agree?

If not I'm sure i could cut and paste passages and statements from it that make that point. He seems to make a pretty big point over the distinction and how "powering" (physically I presume) overall movement directly from the dan tien is less effective and doesn't have as good results.

I mean maybe i have my own thoughts about it,like yours even, maybe, but he seemed pretty adament and clear in written form that that was the case.

That doesn't really exclude that the Practical method isn't "dantien centric" in other ways as there's more to any martial arts styles/systems than a particular teaching pedagogy.

I guess what I mean is, he must have a fairly good basis and reason for writing the things he did about the heirarchy of kua vs dan tien in the movement basis of practical method.

Or are we to just discount it as not actually meaning what it says.. But surely that just opens up another can of worms ?
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:16 am, edited 4 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby cloudz on Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:19 am

Oh, and who do you think has the best cake, if you could just pick one?

cheers! :D
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby willie on Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:29 am

The verbal instructions in the video and integration are incorrect, but still better then most.

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Re: Qi Creation

Postby willie on Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:45 am

cloudz wrote:
willie wrote:Sorry Charles it's not my job to humor you. The truth is I don't even care to prove anything to you or anyone else. maybe you should ask yourself one question. Then come up with a conclusion for yourself. Here's the question. If the majority of all the applications require Dantian rotation at its highest levels. Then how could you expect the applications to actually perform at the highest levels? If the practitioner doesn't understand anything about Dantian rotation or the transmission necessary to bring the Dantian rotation out to the limbs. how many of these Masters that you speak of can actually perform the applications in combat? the simple truth from the thousands of practitioners that I have seen is that most only acquire Peng, root and a couple theories. Most of them believe that taiji is only to yield. This is not true. All those theories are just a replacement for the fact that they do not and cannot make real Tai Chi work because they do not have the proper instructions.



Obviously there are levels to all things..
But if you have connection present, move 'from the centre' use circularity and rotation in and around limbs and joints.. Use 'whole body integration' you're pretty much doing it.

let's face it Willy. I don't think if you asked these requirements of any tai chi style or line you would actually come up empty handed. It's just a matter of degree or what is stressed, what is marketed.. etc.

regards


I like your post Clouds, So I will go out on a limb a little.
I currently train with several credited instructors and groups. Some have this and some have that.
However, None of them have what my primary sifu has " less then 5%" and seeing how those other instructors have 2-3 decades in the art well??
What can I say, It's a completely different transmission.
Also, it is not being marketed at all, in-fact he doesn't even want it out there.
Last edited by willie on Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby charles on Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:11 pm

cloudz wrote:if that's the case i would have to question the lengthy article written that was pretty clear (or so it seemed) that the rotation of the kua, as defined by the article, was the first and foremost 'place of' movement. Do you not agree?


If the article is accessible on-line, please post a link to it. I'd be glad to read it. Until I've read it, I can't really comment on it. However, if he clearly states that the kua is the foremost place of movement, it would seem that's what he means, in which case, I'm wrong. Simple as that.
Last edited by charles on Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby charles on Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:14 pm

cloudz wrote:Oh, and who do you think has the best cake, if you could just pick one?

cheers! :D


You may as well ask who has the best religion. Sorry, I'm not going there.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby willie on Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:39 pm

charles wrote:
cloudz wrote:Oh, and who do you think has the best cake, if you could just pick one?

cheers! :D


You may as well ask who has the best religion. Sorry, I'm not going there.

Nope, it doesn't have anything to do with who has a better religion Charles. The simple fact is there is only one way. All others are wrong. Now how can I say this with such confidence? Because the applications will not work and this is exactly why it has turned into nothing but a shoving match. where is the real?
Last edited by willie on Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby robert on Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:08 pm

charles wrote:
cloudz wrote:if that's the case i would have to question the lengthy article written that was pretty clear (or so it seemed) that the rotation of the kua, as defined by the article, was the first and foremost 'place of' movement. Do you not agree?


If the article is accessible on-line, please post a link to it. I'd be glad to read it. Until I've read it, I can't really comment on it. However, if he clearly states that the kua is the foremost place of movement, it would seem that's what he means, in which case, I'm wrong. Simple as that.

Hi Charles, I think these are the articles.

http://practicalmethod.com/2016/09/chen-zhonghua-qa-on-how-the-kua-function-in-taiji-part-i/

http://practicalmethod.com/2016/09/chen-zhonghua-qa-on-how-the-kua-function-in-taiji-part-ii/

I think they're pretty good, but I would point out that they are about the kua. It's important to look at more than one article he's written. Here are a couple things he has to say about the dantian.

http://practicalmethod.com/2016/09/dantian-rotation/

In answer to a question about dantian he replys "The Dantian function is to connect the upper body with the lower body. In most cases, the Dantian should be lowered but that is only a practicality not a principle. The sequence is to feel that the Dantian sits on the kua while the kua is connected to the knee and then foot. The coccyx is important not because how it should move but rather because it is the helm of the body. It is like a rudder of a boat or the tail of a bird."

http://practicalmethod.com/2010/12/use-of-dantian-and-coccyx/

http://practicalmethod.com/2011/05/dqs-lesson-clip-dantian-rotation/

Also here's clip of CXW discussing power generation and he talks about it in terms of the crotch, waist, and chest. Starting about 0:56.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Holnh-VEysA
Try not to let the words confuse you — they serve no other purpose than to guide you into the inner structures of Taiji. Chen Xin
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby charles on Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:41 pm

robert wrote:Hi Charles, I think these are the articles.


Thanks, Robert, for the links.

I suggest that you read the articles more carefully. I think you'll find that it isn't as clear as it might first appear.

I don't want to get too far into the fine details. My experience in trying to discuss differences between sub-styles is that it never goes well. In many cases, different sub-styles use the same words, but attach very different meaning to them. Trying to have those discussion with those who have not actually experienced what is being discussed doesn't end well. It's much easier for me to just say, "I'm wrong" and move on. I'm okay with that.

Also here's clip of CXW discussing power generation and he talks about it in terms of the crotch, waist, and chest.


This is a VERY different power mechanism than used by CZH.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby cloudz on Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:26 am

charles wrote:
cloudz wrote:Oh, and who do you think has the best cake, if you could just pick one?

cheers! :D


You may as well ask who has the best religion. Sorry, I'm not going there.


Didn't think so, but I thought I'd try ;D
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby amor on Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:52 pm

charles wrote:
willie wrote: it's a level of integration which is necessary to power the drilling or boring requirements of Tai Chi


I wanted to let Willie respond to your question before saying anything. Here's what I was taught.

A basic principle of Taijiquan is whole-body motion, often stated as "When one part moves, all parts move". (In Chen style, some say, "When the dan tian moves all parts move".) To illustrate that principle, people have compared the use of the body in Taijiquan to mechanical devices that demonstrate similar behaviour. One such device is a gear train.

....
The concept is simple enough; achieving it is less so. In Chen style, silk reeling is, if well taught, the explicit method for doing so: one part rotating (twisting) causes the next to rotate.


Thanks for the links but I don't feel the examples help that much because those links show it from a mechanical context rather than human-body flesh, tendon, blood etc. sense.
But while I agree that 'qi creation' and 'helical gears' are important and very much part of taichi the terms just feel cliched in order to make us amazed somehow.

I think it would be better to actually describe whats going on under the hood rather than talk about those terms which are the end result of an extremely tough process of 'internal refinement'. This is for willie but you can add your own if you wish but what about the 'web-like' structure or stretchy feeling of the jing-luo that you encounter when you relax well almost to the point of being 'limp noodle like'. I had better clarify myself and state that 'limp noodle like' is not the be-all and end-all it's just a pre-requisite state of the body in order to go about causing the internal refinement to occur smoothly or however much you can get it to go smooth.
So how can we relate limp noodle like to helical gears and qi creation. I agree with what Steve Rowe mentioned some posts back as a high level explanation but you have to go low-level if you want to make a success of it imo.
Last edited by amor on Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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