Qi Creation

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Qi Creation

Postby BruceP on Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:25 pm

charles wrote:
willie wrote:All those theories are just a replacement for the fact that they do not and cannot make real Tai Chi work because they do not have the proper instructions.


Funny, that's largely what Brucep stated


Actually, willie and I couldn't be more opposite in our thinking on that.

The unhewn log already knows how to cast an arrow.

Theory compounds difficulty and pretty much forces the seeker to mistake the technique for the goal.

The only section of stave that is worth a bow is the one that already knows how to move like a bow - all the rest of it is unnecessary for practicality, and unrealistic for application. TJQ is simple and direct when it has no applications or techniques, and when it appeals to the section of someone's being which allows them the creative latitude to explore their personal tjq without thinking too much about it.

TJQ is accessible to anyone in quite short order, and with only a basic repertiore of insight and repeatable method, because most people have it already.

You can't really teach anyone anything - you can only bring out what's already there.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby willie on Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:30 am

BruceP wrote:
Actually, willie and I couldn't be more opposite in our thinking on that.

The unhewn log already knows how to cast an arrow.

Theory compounds difficulty and pretty much forces the seeker to mistake the technique for the goal.

The only section of stave that is worth a bow is the one that already knows how to move like a bow - all the rest of it is unnecessary for practicality, and unrealistic for application. TJQ is simple and direct when it has no applications or techniques, and when it appeals to the section of someone's being which allows them the creative latitude to explore their personal tjq without thinking too much about it.

TJQ is accessible to anyone in quite short order, and with only a basic repertiore of insight and repeatable method, because most people have it already.

You can't really teach anyone anything - you can only bring out what's already there.

Hi Bruce not so many years ago I would have agreed with what you're saying. Now no. This liberal point of view where people have just taken the art anyway they wish has led too many people too far off track. I'm not against creativity, but when creativity starts to replace the intended application, then I have to draw the line there.
Last edited by willie on Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby charles on Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:35 am

BruceP wrote:Actually, willie and I couldn't be more opposite in our thinking on that.


Thanks for clarifying your thoughts and correcting my misinterpretation of them.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:44 am

BruceP wrote:
charles wrote:
willie wrote:All those theories are just a replacement for the fact that they do not and cannot make real Tai Chi work because they do not have the proper instructions.


Funny, that's largely what Brucep stated


Actually, willie and I couldn't be more opposite in our thinking on that.

The unhewn log already knows how to cast an arrow.

Theory compounds difficulty and pretty much forces the seeker to mistake the technique for the goal.

The only section of stave that is worth a bow is the one that already knows how to move like a bow - all the rest of it is unnecessary for practicality, and unrealistic for application. TJQ is simple and direct when it has no applications or techniques, and when it appeals to the section of someone's being which allows them the creative latitude to explore their personal tjq without thinking too much about it.

TJQ is accessible to anyone in quite short order, and with only a basic repertiore of insight and repeatable method, because most people have it already.

You can't really teach anyone anything - you can only bring out what's already there.


So are you essentially saying that training is removing what isn't Taijiquan?
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby Steve Rowe on Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:14 am

As a MA's magazine writer I've had the opportunity to ask a lot if Japanese and Chinese 'masters' what qi is and most have answered 'air' or 'breath' or 'energy' sometimes explaining the calligraphy of steam coming of a rice pot so 'life force'. One Japanese master said that lightning was the ki of the sky.

FWIW my take on it is that it's the energy that runs with the breath, blood, neurology, mind and movement. When these harmonise in Japanese it is called 'kiai' ki= energy, 'ai' = harmony, when you can maintain this state you become a person of 'aiki' the way of doing this would be called aikido. The best English word for me is 'animation', when you animate, you emanate. Animation sķlls requires all the nuts and bolts of good qigong.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:42 am

Steve Rowe wrote:As a MA's magazine writer I've had the opportunity to ask a lot if Japanese and Chinese 'masters' what qi is and most have answered 'air' or 'breath' or 'energy' sometimes explaining the calligraphy of steam coming of a rice pot so 'life force'. One Japanese master said that lightning was the ki of the sky.

FWIW my take on it is that it's the energy that runs with the breath, blood, neurology, mind and movement. When these harmonise in Japanese it is called 'kiai' ki= energy, 'ai' = harmony, when you can maintain this state you become a person of 'aiki' the way of doing this would be called aikido. The best English word for me is 'animation', when you animate, you emanate. Animation sķlls requires all the nuts and bolts of good qigong.


What I've gathered from talking to folks from a number of different disciplines and reading a ton of English explanations is that Qi is equivalent as a word to Energy and needs some sort of context to be meaningful.

Tian Qi, Ren Qi, Dian Qi, what kind of Qi you need?

I also think there's a bit of confusion among a lot of Americans about the whole set of Yi, Qi, Li, and Jin as applies to tjq. Where does one start and the other begin and what is the function of each and what is the importance of even knowing that?
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby zhenwu on Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:39 am

@ charles.. I like your ball-gear metapher. If the gear does not grip, the power get lost..
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby charles on Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:07 am

zhenwu wrote:@ charles.. I like your ball-gear metapher. If the gear does not grip, the power get lost..


Thank you, but it's not mine. It's a pretty common Taiji metaphor, taught to me by others. As Willie correctly stated, one has to learn how to implement it.

One of many examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIXcPHY04Mo
Last edited by charles on Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby BruceP on Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:46 pm

willie wrote:Hi Bruce not so many years ago I would have agreed with what you're saying. Now no. This liberal point of view where people have just taken the art anyway they wish has led too many people too far off track. I'm not against creativity, but when creativity starts to replace the intended application, then I have to draw the line there.


So what are you, the tai chi cop?

I haven't been practicing tjq for very long. Maybe I'll clue in somewhere down the road.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby BruceP on Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:00 pm

oragami_itto wrote:
So are you essentially saying that training is removing what isn't Taijiquan?


No. It has nothing to do with removing anything. I'm saying that tjq is a set principles and methods that anyone can learn in short order and practice without theory or thought.

Theory and thought is a problem for most people. "Why am I doing this?" What is this for?" "Which application is this posture?" GAH! Even push-hands is a detriment to understanding.

On topic, I'm suggesting cultivating intent and letting qi manifest as a by-product of that practice instead of 'cultivating qi'. Shift the paradigm and you shift the emphasis.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:01 pm

BruceP wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:
So are you essentially saying that training is removing what isn't Taijiquan?


No. It has nothing to do with removing anything. I'm saying that tjq is a set principles and methods that anyone can learn in short order and practice without theory or thought.


Okay I get you and I agree. The way you phrased the metaphor, the only part of the stave you need is the part that knows how to be a bow, reminded me of the quote falsely attributed to Michealangelo that to sculpt David he just chipped away all the marble that didn't look like David.

Which was I guess actually from this:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/06/22/chip-away/
It is the sculptor’s power, so often alluded to, of finding the perfect form and features of a goddess, in the shapeless block of marble; and his ability to chip off all extraneous matter, and let the divine excellence stand forth for itself. Thus, in every incident of business, in every accident of life, the poet sees something divine, and carefully scales off all that encumbers that divinity, and permits it to be revealed in all its transcendent loveliness.


And similar to the TTC

Chapter 48

One who seeks knowledge learns something new every day.
One who seeks the Tao unlearns something new every day.
Less and less remains until you arrive at non-action.
When you arrive at non-action,
nothing will be left undone.

Mastery of the world is achieved
by letting things take their natural course.
You cannot master the world by changing the natural way.


BruceP wrote:Theory and thought is a problem for most people. "Why am I doing this?" What is this for?" "Which application is this posture?" GAH! Even push-hands is a detriment to understanding.

I suppose there's understanding without doing and doing without understanding. A theory pointing to an achievement, or repetition until something is achieved. Isn't there some saying about the only secret is practice?
In either case you're approaching no-thought and no-form if you're actually training. Talking helps understand and frame experiences mainly. Confirmation? Developing a common vocabulary?

BruceP wrote:On topic, I'm suggesting cultivating intent and letting qi manifest as a by-product of that practice instead of 'cultivating qi'. Shift the paradigm and you shift the emphasis

I believe that's the method recommended by everyone. Do the work and it happens.
Last edited by oragami_itto on Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby willie on Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:25 pm

BruceP wrote:
willie wrote:Hi Bruce not so many years ago I would have agreed with what you're saying. Now no. This liberal point of view where people have just taken the art anyway they wish has led too many people too far off track. I'm not against creativity, but when creativity starts to replace the intended application, then I have to draw the line there.


So what are you, the tai chi cop?

I haven't been practicing tjq for very long. Maybe I'll clue in somewhere down the road.

No I'm not a cop but I can tell you this, I don't have the luxury of being as creative as you apparently can be. I sincerely wish you all the best of luck in your training.
Last edited by willie on Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby cloudz on Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:46 am

charles wrote:
willie wrote:
amor wrote:what does this even mean Helical gears created by yi...


it's a level of integration which is necessary to power the drilling or boring requirements of Tai Chi


I wanted to let Willie respond to your question before saying anything. Here's what I was taught.

A basic principle of Taijiquan is whole-body motion, often stated as "When one part moves, all parts move". (In Chen style, some say, "When the dan tian moves all parts move".) To illustrate that principle, people have compared the use of the body in Taijiquan to mechanical devices that demonstrate similar behaviour. One such device is a gear train.

In a gear train, there is one gear that drives the other gears. When the driving gear turns, all of the gears in the gear train must turn: it isn't possible that any gear does not move. There is [little] "slack" between gears as all of the gears in the train are engaged. Given that it is metaphorical, it doesn't really matter what type of gears are being used, spur, helical, rack and pinion ... So, the idea is that the parts of the body move, one "rubbing" on the other, with [little] slack between parts, driven by one part. There are other subtleties, such as different size gears (motions), different speeds of rotation and different directions of rotation, but that's the central idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_i3PJIYtuY

A mechanical device that behaves similarly is the "race" of balls in a ball bearing, where one ball in contact with the next rubs against and turns so that when one ball in the race turns, all of the balls turn. Feng Zhiqiang, for example, assembled his "18 ball" silk reeling set of exercises using that metaphor. (The 18 balls are the primary joints of the body, as he counted them.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DDfdZFJ-7s

The concept is simple enough; achieving it is less so. In Chen style, silk reeling is, if well taught, the explicit method for doing so: one part rotating (twisting) causes the next to rotate.


Nice post Charles.

Here's a million dollar question for you.

On which side do you fall on the question of the Primary moving part; dantien or kua
Dantien as per the Chen village folks etc. or kua as described by Chen Zhonghua/ practical method.
Incidently do the other branches of Chen Fake lineage do it like Chen Zhonghua describes ?

cheers!
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby cloudz on Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:55 am

willie wrote:
charles wrote:

The thought of it is what derails the doing.


There's a lot of truth to that.

Sometimes, thinking about something can aid in the better doing of that thing. Sometimes, thinking about something displaces the doing.


This post slid right into the gray area of lost souls.
The truth is once you have acquired the advanced level of integration that i briefly mentioned, there is no turning back.
There is no misunderstanding, There is no need to worry about arguments over thinking and doing. The entire art reveals itself instantly and only
with a master who truly understands this level can anyone acquire it. There is only one way and all others are incorrect.
If-fact none of the applications have proper functionality without this level and that is exactly why many taiji practitioners make up or believe in all kinds
of theories that had nothing to do with the original text.



There's no real purity in any martial arts; tai chi maybe moreso due to so many branches and a lack of coherence on history and origins, widespread styles and versions in China. There just no way to definitively states one of the Chen styles is, in fact, the "one true way".

To be honest I don't even think silk reeling is that "special" to Chen tai chi within the wider pantheon of TCMA, but I would concede they probably take it further than anyone else does as well as perhaps elavating it's centrality and importance to the functioning of the style/system - all well and good, I'm not knocking the method! Whether that's because it's "the one true way" or Their own true way of choice, is pretty impossible to judge is the point I'm trying to make really. I mean being partisan and making your own mind up is all great and stuff. The important thing for individuals is to find something they beleive in, so from that perspective you are luckier than most I would imagine.
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:59 am, edited 3 times in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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Re: Qi Creation

Postby cloudz on Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:04 am

willie wrote:Sorry Charles it's not my job to humor you. The truth is I don't even care to prove anything to you or anyone else. maybe you should ask yourself one question. Then come up with a conclusion for yourself. Here's the question. If the majority of all the applications require Dantian rotation at its highest levels. Then how could you expect the applications to actually perform at the highest levels? If the practitioner doesn't understand anything about Dantian rotation or the transmission necessary to bring the Dantian rotation out to the limbs. how many of these Masters that you speak of can actually perform the applications in combat? the simple truth from the thousands of practitioners that I have seen is that most only acquire Peng, root and a couple theories. Most of them believe that taiji is only to yield. This is not true. All those theories are just a replacement for the fact that they do not and cannot make real Tai Chi work because they do not have the proper instructions.



Obviously there are levels to all things..
But if you have connection present, move 'from the centre' use circularity and rotation in and around limbs and joints.. Use 'whole body integration' you're pretty much doing it.

let's face it Willy. I don't think if you asked these requirements of any tai chi style or line you would actually come up empty handed. It's just a matter of degree or what is stressed, what is marketed.. etc.

regards
Last edited by cloudz on Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
The old man calmly said: “Among the mighty are those who are mightier. In martial arts, no one presumes to praise his own ability. But because you are young, you don't know the scale of the world, and are unaware of how ridiculous you are. Why be upset?”
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