Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby wuchan on Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:49 pm

Hi, everyone. I've searched the forum a lot and didn't find any threads with this exact subject, but hope I'm not treading old ground here. Just a quick question on Xinyi Liuhe Quan!

Are there significant differences between the Shanghai/Lu style Xinyi and Henan Xinyi? I'm just curious if they're basically the same but maybe with the occasional superficial posture/form discrepancy, or if are they really two distinct sub-styles in their training and flavor, a la Hebei/Shanxi Xingyi? I've watched a lot of videos but I feel like I'm not educated enough to really get a handle on any big differences just from Youtube, especially if they're more "internal".
Last edited by wuchan on Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby Tom on Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:28 am

A good introduction: http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/xylhhistory.html. You could try contacting the author, Jarek Szymanski, by PM here or by e-mail, [email protected] . He's trained in a line of XYLHQ from Lu Song'gao but has researched other lineages as well.
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

---Vernon Law
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby nicklinjm on Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:20 pm

Am sure Jarek himself will pipe up sooner or later, but think his main teacher (Li Zunsi) is actually from the Mai family (i.e. not Shanghai Lu Songgao) branch. In any case, as Tom says, Jarek is definitely the guy to ask, has practiced the art for years (decades?) and done extensive research into the various branches.

Think Somatai from this board (Derek Notman) has also practiced Shanghai-style Xinyi Liuhe coming from Lu Song-gao for many years, may be worth sending him a PM.
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby eshan on Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:15 am

I would say lineage is a better way of establishing the difference.
Ie. Lu Song Gao was not the only master to bring XYLH from Honan to Shanghai.
Similarly, if you say Honan Xinyi there are several branches in there.
So saying Shanghai or Honan XYLH does not help much to identify the branch or its traits.

Like people have said, have a look at Jarek´s website, there´s good information on the genealogy.

As for internet videos, I think there is a lot of chaff so they can be misleading, if you do not know what you are looking for.
I think many people has been exploting the "old, rare, badass style" hype since the name XYLH started becoming better known, specially outside of China,

wuchan wrote:Are there significant differences between the Shanghai/Lu style Xinyi and Henan Xinyi? I'm just curious if they're basically the same but maybe with the occasional superficial posture/form discrepancy, or if are they really two distinct sub-styles in their training and flavor, a la Hebei/Shanxi Xingyi? I've watched a lot of videos but I feel like I'm not educated enough to really get a handle on any big differences just from Youtube, especially if they're more "internal".
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby wuchan on Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:43 am

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

Love that article of Jarek's. My question is more about significant differences (if any) in training/methodology/flavor between the branches. Do branches of Xinyi vary as much as branches of Xingyi, for example? I'm extremely interested in studying Xinyi, and although I'm in Shanghai and I would assume Lu Songgao lineage is dominant here, I'm trying to get a handle on the lay of the land, so to speak. Of course with Xingyi/Bagua/Taiji, a student could end up training quite differently depending on which lineage they're learning from. But maybe Xinyi, being much smaller, doesn't vary as much?

As far as videos online, other than older videos of Li Zunsi and Yu Hualong, I've really loved what I've seen from Shi Xiaowu and Sun Baocai, as well as Qian Shiying (and of course Qian Zhaohong looked amazing).
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby HotSoup on Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:12 am

If you pardon my arrogance, looking for a good master may serve you better then looking for a particular style/lineage. At the end of the day, you learn what you master teaches you. If it is good, you enjoy it and see your progress, does it really matter how similar it is to material of other people?
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby eshan on Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:24 am

(Afaik)

I believe methodology is more less the same in all branches:
The system is learnt mainly by doing lines back and forth in different patterns, including an opening an a closing sequence.
Plus a few Tao lu, combos and specific shenfa and neigong.
Some weapons practice depending on the branch.
Weapon forms are usually few which is not very important since the system was originally based on battle weapons, mainly spear.
So most of the empty hand stuff has huge carryover to weapons usage.
Tui da practice with partner, hitting trees and other conditioning exercises.
XYLH conditiong work also includes parts of the body that are not normally worked in other styles.
Ie. tailbone, belly, back blades area.
Then application practice and sparring, more or less depending on the school.

Technically all the branches have the same ten animals but the forms can differ.
Though the core should be present in all of them: ji bu, cai ji bu, ji bu yao shuang ba, zou ji bu, tiao ling, ying zhua, lei shen, etc.
The branch I practice has a few secondary animals that according to my teacher are unique to it, so it is possible that other branches also have some extra animals outisde of the big ten.

Lastly, flavor can vary greatly for what I have seen.
I believe heavy influence of spear shenfa should always be present otherwise it is not orthodox XYLH, but this is probably a matter of opinion.
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby wuchan on Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:57 pm

HotSoup wrote:If you pardon my arrogance, looking for a good master may serve you better then looking for a particular style/lineage. At the end of the day, you learn what you master teaches you. If it is good, you enjoy it and see your progress, does it really matter how similar it is to material of other people?


Oh, I agree for sure. Any good teacher is fine by me, especially one that can use the art and teaches others to do the same (even if their lineage is less "pure" somehow). I was just curious because I hadn't seen much written about differences between the various branches in terms of what the training is like. Just nice to know what's out there!

And eshan, thanks for the info, very helpful. I don't think I've heard of tailbone conditioning before, wow. Super interesting.
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby taiwandeutscher on Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:10 am

[quote="eshan

.... since the system was originally based on battle weapons, mainly spear.
.......
I believe heavy influence of spear shenfa should always be present otherwise it is not orthodox XYLH, but this is probably a matter of opinion.[/quote]

That sounds great. In our Huleijia, we have lots of Wangbaoqiang influence in shenfa, and I do believe that is not only a matter of opinion! :P
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby eshan on Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:16 am

taiwandeutscher wrote:... I do believe that is not only a matter of opinion! :P


Haha, thank you. Just picking the words carefully, to avoid derailing the thread.

taiwandeutscher wrote:That sounds great. In our Huleijia, we have lots of Wangbaoqiang influence in shenfa ..


That is very interesting, first time I hear about that.
I have seen other styles using the daqiang or pole to develop shenfa, but not Wangbao spear specifically.
Are there any videos available that you would recommend?
Do you actually use a heavy spear or pole to practice this?
If possible, could you describe how it is practice, exercises, method, etc.?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby dspyrido on Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:15 pm

I've trained with different xylh instructors from different lineages and locations. The fundamentals are the same: emphasis being to condition the body from the legs up from the inside out, coordinate the harmonies, build will/intent etc.

How each approaches this kind of varies like eshan outlines due to lineage, body, animal flavour/preference, other styles they have trained. For example some shanghai guys have been influenced by sanda/boxing. Others have gone the route of 12 animal and added a lot more forms. Others have even gone more wushu and have tried to make a performance of it. Some have even tried to make it more of a chigung/slow tai chi style to soften it for greater public consumption.

This is all fine because xylh is not dogmatic but at its root is a fighting style and all its benefits come from stretching and conditioing the body and mind in preparation for fighting. Without the intense conditoning in the early stages it's not going to get the benefits of xylh. All good xylh instructors get this.
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby Wuji on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:01 pm

I train XYLHQ, and have been for a bit now. As far as the differences, there are quite a few. I'm not sure if it's teacher specific or not, as I've only seen one teacher of Lu Style (or one that advertises like this). The movements have changed a lot, in my opinion. For example, there is a video where Dragon Hang's Shoulders is being done. In most lineages, the arms swing quite a bit more. Some lineages they are very loose and swing, in others this movement has more of an emphasis on the elbow as an attack. In Lu Style (the demonstration I've seen) the arms were very stiff, they didn't move very much at all. Which, to me, goes against the purpose of the movement (again, this is how I was taught, some people might have different experience).

I'm not going to talk anyone down, it's different then how I was taught. Doesn't make it bad though, just different. I would recommend you find someone who teaches Yu Hua Long's Lineage. One of his students is in Canada, and he would tell his students that one of the secrets that many masters kept for themselves was training side to side. As in, you learn to do it on one side, then on the other, then how to transition. As Yu Hua Long would say, "you should be able to do your XYLH in a closet". My teacher actually lived/trained with him for a while and attested to this, as this was how he was taught. You do it for quite some time on one side. Then you do it for quite some time on the other. Then you learn how to change side to side. You learn the stepping pattern to do this as you go along (most are quite easy). This develops a lot of fluidity. Once you can do this, the lines are much easier.

Basically, I would recommend finding one of Yu Hua Longs students. He has a lot of students from my understanding. I've had good experience with it, and I love it. Still going, and I never plan on stopping.
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby Trick on Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:41 am

The more I read, hear and see about XYLHQ the more interesting it seem. Now I live in a nearby city to Hefei where I heard are some good XYLHQ, hope to get the time to check out more about that.
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby Storm on Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:48 pm

Can one of you who practices XYLHQ please explain the differences between this style and the Xingyi Quan animals? Saw a lot of videos but just from looking I can not understand the differences. Ist the focus different, are certain movements specific? Thank you.
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Re: Xinyi Liuhe Quan Question

Postby eshan on Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:11 am

I think comparing XYLH with XY animals is not very useful, but here it goes.
The following is based on my limited knowledge of XYQ so anyone please feel free to comment if I´m not accurate.

First, XYLH has a core based on 10 animals forms plus some non animal stuff.
XYQ, on the other hand, has a core based on the 5 elements and then 12 animals instead of 10.
So to begin with, the animals have a different function and relevance in each style.
as a consequence of this, XYLH places greater focus on expressing the spirit of each animal, this is difficult to appreciate just by watching video.
And as far as I know XYQ is more concerned about expressing types of force rather than animal intention.

Second, structure in XYLH is different than in XYQ.
Ie. XYLH is based on jibu, has more emphasis on walking and liuhe, etc
XYQ is based on san ti, has generally more emphasis on standing practice, expression of force, etc.
These define the differences between forms in one style and the other, animals form or not.
The structure is more important than the specific technique.

I think comparing XYLH with XYQ as whole styles would be much more useful than just comparing the animals part as it is not an equal to equal comparison.







Storm wrote:Can one of you who practices XYLHQ please explain the differences between this style and the Xingyi Quan animals? Saw a lot of videos but just from looking I can not understand the differences. Ist the focus different, are certain movements specific? Thank you.
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