Application for "brush knee"

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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:01 pm

I can't quite work out if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby Steve James on Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:00 pm

Well, my point was that the form/s with names like BKTS, are only various expressions of the tcc basics. Yes, each form has at least one application or technique that can be demonstrated. For example, "lu" is not a posture, Roll Back is. BKTS uses lu and an. But it's just an example. Later on in the long form more "techniques" are illustrated, but there could be many more. It's not orthodox to do Single Whip to the right using the right hand. Imho, it doesn't mean that the practitioner is limited.

I think a student needs to do the basics well, but that is not specific to any form, like BKTS. But that doesn't mean that there is proper technique. BKTS is an opportunity to practice it. However, techniques must be practiced and demonstrated against opponents. Ime, making it work under those conditions is the goal.
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:16 pm

Every move in the form uses a variation of ward off,roll back,press and push brush knee is no exception
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby everything on Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:14 am

afaik bkts uses pull down and push. but here we have the formless rorschach problem/opportunity again.
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby Steve James on Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:38 am

wayne hansen wrote:Every move in the form uses a variation of ward off,roll back,press and push brush knee is no exception


??? That's what I said, except I used peng, lu, ji, an to distinguish what people call jin/energy from technique/application.

BKTS, like any other shi, can be broken down in terms of the 13 (peng, lu, ji, an, etc). BKTS is simply an expression of those movements /energies. Any correct expression of them is fine. In fact, since no two opponents may attack the same way, one might have to create a new expression that fulfills the immediate need. I.e., if one's tcc is limited to the forms and specific applications, one's ability to respond is also limited.
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:40 am

wayne hansen wrote:TT is not a good example due to his connection with CMC?


I don't know what you mean by that.

In his tradition the application is less evident in the form.


I agree that if you don't know how to read it, it's very hard to see. The difference between a forehand (bk) and a backhand (et) is pretty clear to me in this case.

I watched the video again and finally noticed that Cung did sort of finish with a throwaway punch/push which I feel is more brush knee. The first example in the clip was more embrace tiger, but honestly it would have to finish different

Really though I mean applications are important but are they? Provided the application you visualize is putting the energy where it needs to be, do the details matter? The gross external mechanics of brush knee could apply equally to throwing a baseball so why not use that as an application?
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby everything on Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:30 am

it's a good question. the details matter a lot but yet they sort of don't.

every time we devolve (evolve) into this high-falutin formlessness ideal, it's hard to think of any modern day example. if you look at any great sport fighter: fedor, mayweather, jr., they are all clearly using very, very specific, identifiable "form". even jon jones who is the biggest master of the widest possible repertoire and unpredictability is using very, very specific "forms". even if we say they have a game plan, if we look at mayweather, jr., he adjusts in-game, but still uses his very specific toolset. this is true of any individual or teams in any extremely high-level competition. there are individuals and teams that seemingly approach formlessness, but really, they don't.

the formlessness seems ideal at the philosophical level, but at the reality level, seems like absolute bullshit. sure, maybe if you are 10x better, you can do anything. for example Fedor against any of us. He could be "formless" and easily do whatever. A better fighter/player/team can seem formless against far inferior opposition. other than that, this always smells like bullshit.

In soccer/football there was the "total football" ideal, which was also a form of "formlessness" but of course there is/was structure underneath the formlessness, and the formlessness was mostly probably much better players/team rather than a reproducible thing (no modern teams have been able to reproduce this formless thing even though there is still a utopian philosophical ideal and this sort of school of thought).
Last edited by everything on Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:30 pm

First Steve I don't use the Chinese terms because we are talking in English
I worded it badly what I meant to say is
Every posture has the whole 4 energies ward off,roll back ,press and push.
The other 4 are just variations of first 4 done from the corners.


Ito
What I meant about TT and CMC is there form has become super subtle and the application has become hidden
So to look for it within their form you need a time machine
In the forms on film it has disappeared and most of those teaching their forms are imatating something most don't understand being further confused by their reliance on films

Everything
The form is for training form
Formlessness comes from long repetition of form coupled with solo exercise and pushing along with realistic two man training to such a degree it becomes instinctive and refined
The move shown is not BKTS or CT due to the way the left hand is employed the brush knee part is non existent
I can think of a dozen more moves it is more like ,one is hit tiger.
A boxer would not just practice anything as a punch,say ding jabs down to his knee out to the side.
Like hsing I he practices a small number of techniques with total form and uses them as required in a formless manner to very defined and selected targets in a formless manner.
Formlessness is not a philosophical concept it is a training goal
Last edited by wayne hansen on Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby everything on Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:02 pm

if we say we do form a lot until we can do it without thinking and we just do something "formless" with that form, I think I agree, yeah.

If we say we can just be formless from the get go, I don't see how that can possibly be. But reading back, I think everyone here is saying the former, so I'm just ranting against a strawman, haha. Sorry for the side rant!
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:06 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Ito
What I meant about TT and CMC is there form has become super subtle and the application has become hidden
So to look for it within their form you need a time machine
In the forms on film it has disappeared and most of those teaching their forms are imatating something most don't understand being further confused by their reliance on films


I definitely agree. Everything I know of Master Liang and his methods I learned from his direct student of many years. What I learned isn't the hundredth part of what he's got but oh well, don't live there any more. :(

The more I get out and see other interpretations and deviations the more I appreciate that foundation.
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby windwalker on Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:29 pm

wayne hansen wrote:
The form is for training form
Formlessness comes from long repetition of form coupled with solo exercise and pushing along with realistic two man training to such a degree it becomes instinctive and refined

The move shown is not BKTS or CT due to the way the left hand is employed the brush knee part is non existent
I can think of a dozen more moves it is more like ,one is hit tiger.

A boxer would not just practice anything as a punch,say ding jabs down to his knee out to the side.
Like hsing I he practices a small number of techniques with total form and uses them as required in a formless manner to very defined and selected targets in a formless manner.

Formlessness is not a philosophical concept it is a training goal


well said ;)

Although I would have expressed it as " Formlessness is a product of correct in depth training"

Which might be saying the same thing in a different way.

Mike noted some of the same ideas in training.

"A “narrow” system is one that specifies a particular response for a particular attack. So for every possible attack, there is a specific response. And because there are a great many possible attacks, there are also a great may specific techniques to counter them. With “narrow” systems, you have A LOT of techniques — like the proverbial 108 hand techniques, for instance.


A “wide” system has much fewer techniques, but looks to the changes possible for each of them.

So for instance, you might only have 5 or 6 basic punches… but many “changes” associated with those punches. See also Bagua, with it’s emphasis on changes.

The way to learn how to use a wide system (like White Crane) is then to gain experience with using the limited number of techniques you have available, in a wide assortment of attacks. In other words, you have to use the techniques in sparring… a lot of sparing… so you can learn how a single punch can be used against multiple attack patterns

Mike Staples"
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby GrandUltimate on Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:37 pm

Looks kind of like wheeling, at least from the little I've seen of it.
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby everything on Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:59 pm

Oh I like that wide system explanation
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:52 pm

As a native speaker of Chinese, I've always found the English translation "brush knee" to be quite off from it's original meaning. The character "摟" (lo3) in 摟膝拗步 (lo3xi1ao4bu4 'Brush Knee Twist Step') means to hold or keep something/someone close using your arms, which is completely different from the verb "brush" in English.

A Wu stylist I met in Hong Kong once showed me an application for it and said that, according to his teacher, it was mainly a quick takedown designed to temporarily trap the leg, and cause the opponent's lead leg to break right below the knee as he falls -- a nasty technique only taught to indoor disciples. (Again, secrecy in CIMA -- so what's new? ;) )

While the move can certainly be applied in more than one ways, his application is by far the most logical and effective one I've come across so far.
Last edited by C.J.W. on Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Application for "brush knee"

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:17 pm

Pretty standard CTH application
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