the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Here is another application for Taiji "brush knee". Your thought?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdTCXha ... e=youtu.be

That doesn't feel more like an "embrace tiger to return it to the mountain" to you?

John

To me that's hsing-i monkey. 100%

Applications never have to look exactly like the form. The application in the first video has elements that could be from BKTS. Embrace Tiger is like BKTS, except that it uses a retreat step and ends on a diagonal.

Steve James wrote:Applications never have to look exactly like the form. The application in the first video has elements that could be from BKTS. Embrace Tiger is like BKTS, except that it uses a retreat step and ends on a diagonal.

Well sure, just thinking about what fits best for the energy. It's a good brush knee app, could be a good embrace tiger app.

Looking back at that video, it's not how I do embrace tiger at all, so not the best example of what I mean I guess.

johnwang wrote:Here is another application for Taiji "brush knee". Your thought?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdTCXha ... e=youtu.be

BNTS as an entering move against several types of kicks, certainly. As long as timing and angles are OK - above all not opposing your defending arm straight against the kick, in a strength-against-strength manner (goodbye arm).
In the video you post, two different applications are being shown. The defending guy in black at the start is doing a move that certainly fits within the BNTS parameter. His lower arm comes down and intercepts/deflects the kick from the inside before capturing the attacking leg. Maybe the defender's leg is also taking some of the impact, hard to tell from this perspective. Then Cung Le demonstrates something different. As he explains, he uses his angled thigh more like a ramp to deflect the kick and then afterwards he seizes the attacking leg from the outside. (Seems strange to me, two different moves in the same demo video). To my mind the second move doesn't really fit the BNTS parameter. But maybe more an Embrace Tiger variant, at least as I understand it.

Your right there Giles it resembles BKTS in no way
Nor does it resemble CTBTM which is just a turning variation of BKTS
to defend kicks with BKTS is ineffective due to the structure of the move
The defence is in the upper palace the arm in the lower palace is just following energy

To assist the discussion I made a video of how T.T. Liang practiced BKTS and ETRTM.

Your tradition may vary a little, but what I understand this to demonstrate is that the lead hand on brush knee first crosses the body high and then returns to the same side low, while the rear hand circles back low, then forward high.

Embrace tiger can be seen as a variation on both this and cloud hands, in my opinion. The lead hand travels from the centerline to the same side high, then drops to palm up above the thigh while the rear hand is the same as brush knee's rear hand.

I suppose which application is more appropriate depends more on what you're going to do next. Embrace Tiger to Return it to the Mountain is pretty clearly in my opinion a throw. The lead hand against the chest and the rear hand under the knee, turn the wheel with their weighted foot as a fulcrum. Brush Knee and Twist Step from that context would be more of a trip/knockdown in the opposite direction allowing the weighted leg to drag with the body, and I don't believe that it is quite as effective or efficient, in my opinion.

TT is not a good example due to his connection with CMC?
In his tradition the application is less evident in the form.
BKTS and CT both can be used as a throw but there are a myriad of applications just as done in the form
There are also many ways they can be adapted for real life application
Unfortunately the ones in the clip use completely different energy

johnwang wrote:Here is another application for Taiji "brush knee". Your thought?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdTCXha ... e=youtu.be

Where are the taiji players using it?

One might call it brush knee, its not what the people in the clip call it.
One might call it anything depending on ones view point and they'ed be correct.

Some might even argue about it as here. Where are the taiji players using brush knee?

Everyone can agree on what a boxing upper cut, or right cross as shown by "boxers" is.
There would be no argument about what it was or how it was used.

Why is taiji so different?

of course there are teachers and schools that teach taiji that are different.

2:06 brush knee, application and usage

Applications never have to look exactly like the form.

True but they should reflect what is trained, which in this teacher's case is what they train and do.
Very good apps, with training that supports, and testing that confirms them.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2b8PGMvSVQ

windwalker wrote:
Where are the taiji players using it?

One might call it brush knee, its not what the people in the clip call it.
One might call it anything depending on ones view point and they'ed be correct.

Some might even argue about it as here. Where are the taiji players using brush knee?

Everyone can agree on what a boxing upper cut, or right cross as shown by "boxers" is.
There would be no argument about what it was or how it was used.

Why is taiji so different?

of course there are teachers and schools that teach taiji that are different.

2:06 brush knee, application and usage

Applications never have to look exactly like the form.

True but they should reflect what is trained, which in this teaches case is what they train and do.
Very good apps, with training that supports

That is a very good post wind Walker.
Perhaps people have become much too liberal? If you came down to train with us, You would see application of brush knee in use exactly how it is supposed to be.

BKTS, like any other shi, can be broken down in terms of the 13 (peng, lu, ji, an, etc). BKTS is simply an expression of those movements /energies. Any correct expression of them is fine. In fact, since no two opponents may attack the same way, one might have to create a new expression that fulfills the immediate need. I.e., if one's tcc is limited to the forms and specific applications, one's ability to respond is also limited.

Steve James wrote:BKTS, like any other shi, can be broken down in terms of the 13 (peng, lu, ji, an, etc). BKTS is simply an expression of those movements /energies. Any correct expression of them is fine. In fact, since no two opponents may attack the same way, one might have to create a new expression that fulfills the immediate need. I.e., if one's tcc is limited to the forms and specific applications, one's ability to respond is also limited.

"When sparring with opponents, we do not use prescribed postures, but make it impossible to lay a hand on us"
-Wang Tsung-Yueh

Steve James wrote:BKTS, like any other shi, can be broken down in terms of the 13 (peng, lu, ji, an, etc). BKTS is simply an expression of those movements /energies. Any correct expression of them is fine. In fact, since no two opponents may attack the same way, one might have to create a new expression that fulfills the immediate need. I.e., if one's tcc is limited to the forms and specific applications, one's ability to respond is also limited.

What you say is correct application and form change due to circumstance
However the application of each move has certain parameters and must remain true to those
If not there is no point in form
The 8 energies are in each section of the form and each movement
They combine and seperate just like ingredients in a soup
Until there is perfection of form there is no release from form
Thus no formlessness

The form is not the goal.