THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby willie on Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:58 pm

Subitai wrote:Ok Willie you put yourself out there so you shouldn't mind some questions or comments right?

Just watched it and you begin by saying your going to cover some info about "internal power, spiraling energy and Fa Jing".

Then you say you were told(by someone)that "Being Empty is the cause of making people fly off of them"? Wow, I've never heard this. I think you either got POOR answers or you are confused:

1st, we all need to have some sort of Peng in our structure...that's true, you can't just be a limp noodle.
However I've never heard of anyone saying that Emptiness is used to produce the effect of people flying off. As you said it's NOT logical so whomever gave you that answer is full of shit.

2nd, The terms can also be a cause for confusion. Plus different people describe things or DEFINE them differently.

Are you sure you're NOT confusing the term "Empty" with people who claim to be Song / "relaxed into your structure"

===================================================================================

Empty and Emptiness can be used differently...but I'll give you some more ammo for your research;

About Empty,
If one side of your body is empty / the other side can be full. There maybe some confusion or loss in translation in what you're receiving...just saying.

About Emptiness,
I don't know who's telling you that emptiness (alone) leads to internal power but you're correct that it doesn't make sense in that regard.

But if you're trying to say that the Skill of being empty or allowing someone to fall into emptiness is NOT a worthy pursuit then I call BS on your research.

Nobody should just be 100% empty when receiving force! There's always peng somewhere...the question is, after you have allowed the persons attack to become empty (and they are OFF balance for example) in that moment if you attack with internal power ====> THEN they go FLYING!

P.S. were you drinking just before making the vid...or are you always that Amped Up and puffy??? :D

I think that you got it kind of messed up. the person who I was asking who claim to be able to send somebody flying for 25 or 30 ft ended up being fake. Which I already had suspected. Because when questioned on how he did it it ended up being that he just said that he was empty. Which I know for sure is not good enough. Your post seems perfectly reasonable to me. Thank you
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby Subitai on Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:03 pm

Like you said dude...it's not Logical. :)
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby willie on Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:51 am

Appledog wrote:
willie wrote:I just had to quote this one. This one will keep me laughing for quite a while. Apple Dog you don't know how fortunate you are to even be able to see that. Get over yourself.


Ok, then I'm wrong. Can you tell me where I went wrong and how I should train in the future? The only question I would have is if I just sit here being wrong and you never help me or guide me, in such a case wouldn't it be better to follow my own advice (that you laughed at) and look for another teacher? That's why it's so confusing. I'm wrong -- okay -- but now what?


I'm going to go back to this post and your other one in order to answer more directly.
un-fortionately I don't have the time right now. But your post is exactly why i created this thread.

Just for now I will leave you with this quote from Chen Xiao Wang.

To learn taijiquan one has to begin from the elementary and gradually progress to the advanced stage, level by level in a systematic manner. If one goes against this principle thinking he could take a quick way out, he will not succeed.


Do you think that statement is just a bit concrete?
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby Bao on Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:03 pm

willie wrote:I had to remove the video, sorry for the inconvenience,


LOl! I know you are very quick to pull away your vids, so I've saved a copy... "just in case"... ;D -devil-
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- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby willie on Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:43 pm

Bao wrote:
willie wrote:I had to remove the video, sorry for the inconvenience,


LOl! I know you are very quick to pull away your vids, so I've saved a copy... "just in case"... ;D -devil-

That's okay bao, I don't care if you have a copy or not because I know that you are serious player. My Sifu
Sent me a message requesting that I do not share any of his skills or any of his applications.
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby Appledog on Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:13 pm

willie wrote:I'm going to go back to this post and your other one in order to answer more directly.
un-fortionately I don't have the time right now. But your post is exactly why i created this thread.


Time is always against us. Thanks for your response, I'll wait.

willie wrote:Just for now I will leave you with this quote from Chen Xiao Wang.

To learn taijiquan one has to begin from the elementary and gradually progress to the advanced stage, level by level in a systematic manner. If one goes against this principle thinking he could take a quick way out, he will not succeed.


Do you think that statement is just a bit concrete?


Yes it is, but CXW isn't mentioning any specifics here, just discussing a progression from easy to difficult parts of the art. Exactly how that is taught, what exercises are used, etc. could vary. Some would be better than others, I guess. I have a couple boxed sets of CXW's DVDs, is there something in there in particular you think I should look for?

willie wrote:
Bao wrote:
willie wrote:I had to remove the video, sorry for the inconvenience,


LOl! I know you are very quick to pull away your vids, so I've saved a copy... "just in case"... ;D -devil-

That's okay bao, I don't care if you have a copy or not because I know that you are serious player. My Sifu
Sent me a message requesting that I do not share any of his skills or any of his applications.


I think where people get stuck is that they learn something, they get something special, they find a teacher who can teach them a few things, get them farther along the path, and then they relax and don't keep pushing for the next level. Then somehow they begin to think that's all there is, that what they learned must be the correct (or only) way because it 'feels special' or 'it works'. I don't want to be like that. I want to keep an open mind and learn more.

So on one hand I totally understand your desire to follow your teacher's guidance and not reveal his stuff. You should listen to him, of course, he is your teacher. But if you're not allowed to share his stuff, what exactly are you able to share with me? I'm not making any claims here, I saw your video, I find it difficult to understand what precisely is supposed to be secret about what you said. I mean, I thought I knew how to take the next step forward but you seem to be telling me no, don't do that, it's wrong. So what am I supposed to do? Being given the devil's choice of doing something wrong or doing nothing at all, at least if I keep doing what I was taught before I will get some cardiovascular exercise.

Anyways I edited this down it was quite long before. I will just await your response to the previous messages :)
Last edited by Appledog on Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:49 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby willie on Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:01 pm

Apple Dog I don't quite understand you. You say that you are Tai Chi judge. You say you've been here you've been there and you have seen it all but then you claimed that I made up a story about gears and a man made of ball bearings when in fact those skills have existed for a very long time.
Last edited by willie on Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby Appledog on Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:03 pm

willie wrote:Apple Dog I don't quite understand you. You say that you are Tai Chi judge. You say you've been here you've been there and you have seen it all but then you claimed that I made up a story about gears and a man made of ball bearings when in fact those skills have existed for a very long time.


I didn't mean you made it up, and I wasn't questioning anyone's skill. I was questioning the method of explaining those skills; as they are describing appearances. Different (older?) and time-tested analogies exist such as "nine holed pearl", pulling silk, etc. but for us in the modern world these analogies have, perhaps, lost their meaning. I am only worried the new analogies might not have proven themselves as well as the old ones. Isn't it better to understand things the way they were taught previously and not try to change the method? I look around and wonder if changing the method was the right thing to do, since it certainly seems that there has been a decline in ability over the last 100 years or so.

It's all very difficult to sort out, I'm not sure what precisely you can explain to me or help me with since you said your sifu told you not to share what he told you, but I would gladly accept any advice about training if it does in fact help me get a little further down the path. Thanks.
Last edited by Appledog on Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby willie on Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:41 pm

I'm not sure if I agree with you on the analogies being newer. I really don't believe that that is even possible. As I had stated it that video,It is impossible for the applications that were designed for dantain powered helical gears to operate without them. That's like asking an airplane to fly without a propeller
Last edited by willie on Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby willie on Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:46 am

Appledog wrote:
Time is always against us. Thanks for your response, I'll wait.

So on one hand I totally understand your desire to follow your teacher's guidance and not reveal his stuff.


My teacher was a indoor student who recieved a direct transmission which cost him a small fortune, why would he want to give it away?
I also spent a lot of money on it as mine is direct as well.

You're also wrong when you say there is only one way. Nope, there are many ways."


There may be many ways, all other ways will be just some sort of shortcuts that will
completely undermine the necessary skills and knowledge necessary to power the advanced application's.

Actually when I first learned to fajing it had nothing (apparent) to do with circles and everything (apparently) to do with being empty. It's like a negative charge repelling another negative charge; there wasn't any visible force I decided to create. I simply became empty, and whoosh--out came the force. Saying that I became empty or created emptiness or 'relaxed' are all very very accurate descriptions I could give you about what I did 'directly'.


These descriptions that you are giving are not good enough for someone who says
that he is a judge of tai chi. fajin is created by gathering energy and then releasing that energy.
the energy (peng jin) is simular to spring steel or a coiling spring. Either you create your own
fajin by bending your own bows or your opponent does it for you. (borrowing).

"but it would help you do it IF you did the work and was ready to express the skill but just hadn't came to the realizations you needed first, "


There was a yoga instructor that I met who talked just like this. This instructor thought they had all kinds of powers and constantly used terms Like
well grounded and removed all the blockages. Upon testing this person found out that they
had no real grounding at all...And as far as talking about removing blockages, This instructors
motion was so ordinary that it was simular to a stick in a box of rocks. So now when I hear all
these terms, It just reminds me of a parrot who repeats empty slogans. So I ask you to
clarify your statement.

"The point being that if the explanation didn't make sense that's on you not the explainer. It was this process which allowed me to discover that if I turned the idea this way or that way, I could see what I was looking for, I found the connection."


This is total delusion, you are lost. you do not look for any kind of connection by viewing a concept from different angles. What you are suppose to be working on is the promise of "power everywhere". it sounds like you have mixed some transcendental material with the working end of the art.

"Back in the day, before modern distractions, western science, and critical thinking, a younger Chinese gent living in the middle of nowhere or in a smaller farming community would not have the luxury of rejecting an elder's explanation or immediately coming up with his own (flawed) side-door explanation. He would be left to ponder, maybe for years, because that's just how it was understood, and it was on him if he didn't get it."



This was how my old Yang style teacher viewed the art. It is not correct either and he is also a tai chi judge. Now pay attention "There is no possible way to figure out tai chi by pondering anything. The student must be led to the correct understanding by not only practicing and being
told, But also, The skills being performed on him directly. I will tell you this.
It should feel as if you were in a car accident and you can not comprehend...
But that will unfold in time and glimpses will slowly take form.

"That is the problem with making up your own analogy -- "like ball bearings" -- for example. It comes with a host of additional baggage and is missing a host of "standard additional baggage" that was intended to come along with the previous/old/in-door way of explaining things. Go too far down that path and you will end up somewhere else. You still have no way of discerning the end-truth of what you are shooting for by going down that road. Helical gears is another one. I might as well say "A big fat stick". Or using physics explanations. Ok so you're telling me that if I use a stick to perform rollback, or cai (pluck) or any similar technique, it is based on physics. Sure! But what's going on inside the stick? So you see even the very definition of internal and external hasn't been grasped properly, it seems. And if it has, just go and do the work. Don't add on all this additional stuff and make up your own stuff, it won't work. Or it will and you'll end up with something that for better or worse is "like a different religion" -- some kind of different power generation. And it's not traditional and that means it's basically untested. Then again this has happened before, and sometimes leads to a new art, sometimes even a better art. So it's not all bad."


Are you sure you want me to shred this one?


"But it ceases to be "tai chi" or whatever art you are learning and becomes something else. And if you find yourself in the unenviable position of not knowing the real and believing the fake is real because it works or because it feels special, I'm not sure what to say about that. At worst you will end up embarrassing yourself. The way out of that is testing what you know, being humble and allowing yourself to invest in loss when appropriate."


The way out? LOL!
I'm not investing in loss, that was my old style. I'm investing in power everywhere...

". Oh, you want to be a master? Fine, go train four or six hours a day. Now if you find yourself in that situation, that you are dedicated and getting some kind of benefit, but it's not enough for you, then find another teacher. If you stop making progress don't sit there in a rut for years, get out there and get involved "


Most of the masters that I have met in these arts do not have the real art, They have delusion
and basicly just qigong. "The real art is power evrywhere, not yeild everywhere"

It is possible that in your area there is a teacher, an older Chinese gent perhaps, who can feed you the energy you need right away and pull you up. Sometimes all you need is a fresh perspective. Be giving and humble.


Are you sure that you don't want to retract this statement?
Last edited by willie on Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby Ron Panunto on Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:03 pm

willie wrote:That's like asking an airplane to fly without a propeller


You mean like a jet?
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby Appledog on Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:16 pm

willie wrote:
Appledog wrote:
Time is always against us. Thanks for your response, I'll wait.

So on one hand I totally understand your desire to follow your teacher's guidance and not reveal his stuff.


My teacher was a indoor student who recieved a direct transmission which cost him a small fortune, why would he want to give it away?
I also spent a lot of money on it as mine is direct as well.

You're also wrong when you say there is only one way. Nope, there are many ways."


There may be many ways, all other ways will be just some sort of shortcuts that will
completely undermine the necessary skills and knowledge necessary to power the advanced application's.

Actually when I first learned to fajing it had nothing (apparent) to do with circles and everything (apparently) to do with being empty. It's like a negative charge repelling another negative charge; there wasn't any visible force I decided to create. I simply became empty, and whoosh--out came the force. Saying that I became empty or created emptiness or 'relaxed' are all very very accurate descriptions I could give you about what I did 'directly'.


These descriptions that you are giving are not good enough for someone who says
that he is a judge of tai chi. fajin is created by gathering energy and then releasing that energy.
the energy (peng jin) is simular to spring steel or a coiling spring. Either you create your own
fajin by bending your own bows or your opponent does it for you. (borrowing).

"but it would help you do it IF you did the work and was ready to express the skill but just hadn't came to the realizations you needed first, "


There was a yoga instructor that I met who talked just like this. This instructor thought they had all kinds of powers and constantly used terms Like
well grounded and removed all the blockages. Upon testing this person found out that they
had no real grounding at all...And as far as talking about removing blockages, This instructors
motion was so ordinary that it was simular to a stick in a box of rocks. So now when I hear all
these terms, It just reminds me of a parrot who repeats empty slogans. So I ask you to
clarify your statement.

"The point being that if the explanation didn't make sense that's on you not the explainer. It was this process which allowed me to discover that if I turned the idea this way or that way, I could see what I was looking for, I found the connection."


This is total delusion, you are lost. you do not look for any kind of connection by viewing a concept from different angles. What you are suppose to be working on is the promise of "power everywhere". it sounds like you have mixed some transcendental material with the working end of the art.

"Back in the day, before modern distractions, western science, and critical thinking, a younger Chinese gent living in the middle of nowhere or in a smaller farming community would not have the luxury of rejecting an elder's explanation or immediately coming up with his own (flawed) side-door explanation. He would be left to ponder, maybe for years, because that's just how it was understood, and it was on him if he didn't get it."



This was how my old Yang style teacher viewed the art. It is not correct either and he is also a tai chi judge. Now pay attention "There is no possible way to figure out tai chi by pondering anything. The student must be led to the correct understanding by not only practicing and being
told, But also, The skills being performed on him directly. I will tell you this.
It should feel as if you were in a car accident and you can not comprehend...
But that will unfold in time and glimpses will slowly take form.

"That is the problem with making up your own analogy -- "like ball bearings" -- for example. It comes with a host of additional baggage and is missing a host of "standard additional baggage" that was intended to come along with the previous/old/in-door way of explaining things. Go too far down that path and you will end up somewhere else. You still have no way of discerning the end-truth of what you are shooting for by going down that road. Helical gears is another one. I might as well say "A big fat stick". Or using physics explanations. Ok so you're telling me that if I use a stick to perform rollback, or cai (pluck) or any similar technique, it is based on physics. Sure! But what's going on inside the stick? So you see even the very definition of internal and external hasn't been grasped properly, it seems. And if it has, just go and do the work. Don't add on all this additional stuff and make up your own stuff, it won't work. Or it will and you'll end up with something that for better or worse is "like a different religion" -- some kind of different power generation. And it's not traditional and that means it's basically untested. Then again this has happened before, and sometimes leads to a new art, sometimes even a better art. So it's not all bad."


Are you sure you want me to shred this one?


"But it ceases to be "tai chi" or whatever art you are learning and becomes something else. And if you find yourself in the unenviable position of not knowing the real and believing the fake is real because it works or because it feels special, I'm not sure what to say about that. At worst you will end up embarrassing yourself. The way out of that is testing what you know, being humble and allowing yourself to invest in loss when appropriate."


The way out? LOL!
I'm not investing in loss, that was my old style. I'm investing in power everywhere...

". Oh, you want to be a master? Fine, go train four or six hours a day. Now if you find yourself in that situation, that you are dedicated and getting some kind of benefit, but it's not enough for you, then find another teacher. If you stop making progress don't sit there in a rut for years, get out there and get involved "


Most of the masters that I have met in these arts do not have the real art, They have delusion
and basicly just qigong. "The real art is power evrywhere, not yeild everywhere"

It is possible that in your area there is a teacher, an older Chinese gent perhaps, who can feed you the energy you need right away and pull you up. Sometimes all you need is a fresh perspective. Be giving and humble.


Are you sure that you don't want to retract this statement?


I already did. I apologized and asked you for advice. You said you were going to give me a more detailed response and tell me why I was wrong. I assume that is the above? You asked me to clarify my statements and you've asked me a couple of questions. None of that is necessary. I'm just here with an open mind for you to tell me what I was doing wrong so that I can learn to do a better job next time. I'm lost? Sure bet! Where do I go from here?
Last edited by Appledog on Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby willie on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:40 am

Ron Panunto wrote:
willie wrote:That's like asking an airplane to fly without a propeller


You mean like a jet?


I had a strong gut feeling when I wrote that post, that someone would say that! ;D
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby willie on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:52 am

Appledog wrote:
You asked me to clarify my statements and you've asked me a couple of questions. None of that is necessary. I'm just here with an open mind for you to tell me what I was doing wrong so that I can learn to do a better job next time. I'm lost? Sure bet! Where do I go from here?


O.K. I have underlined the important parts.
Yes, I asked you to clarify your statements. That's one of the problems with the approach that you are taking. You are either unwilling or unable too. As
you can see in your next underlined statement "None of that is necessary". Unfortunately that ties in directly with the next underlined statement.
So it is totally impossible to get anything of value out of the situation.
Do you have a video of yourself?
Thanks
Last edited by willie on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: THE GOOD THE BAD AND THE UGLY

Postby Appledog on Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:00 pm

willie wrote:
Appledog wrote:
You asked me to clarify my statements and you've asked me a couple of questions. None of that is necessary. I'm just here with an open mind for you to tell me what I was doing wrong so that I can learn to do a better job next time. I'm lost? Sure bet! Where do I go from here?


O.K. I have underlined the important parts.
Yes, I asked you to clarify your statements. That's one of the problems with the approach that you are taking. You are either unwilling or unable too. As
you can see in your next underlined statement "None of that is necessary". Unfortunately that ties in directly with the next underlined statement.
So it is totally impossible to get anything of value out of the situation.
Do you have a video of yourself?
Thanks


I apologized to you and you said I should wait for a detailed response to what I wrote. Now instead you want me to clarify my statements. Why? If they were wrong, just give me the write-up you promised. What's the point of explaining myself any further? Unless something has changed over the past few days to make you see things differently, what was so obviously wrong about what I said that made you come on so strong by laughing at me on a public forum without having to pick out anything I said?

You said my post was "the reason you made this thread". I'm honestly interested to know. Let's not muddy the waters with me trying to justify, explain or backtrack over what I said. On the other hand if you have changed your mind I could give my thoughts on what transpired here, if you're interested. But I don't see how it could be worth more than an additional couple of laughs unless I figure out what missed the mark in the first place.
Last edited by Appledog on Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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