Our peripheral vision sucks

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby Bao on Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:02 am

Oh, it really does. The annoying part of the story is that we can't do anything about it. And here is the proof:

Image

"There are a total of 12 black dots in this image, but you can't see them all at once.

First published in 2000 in the academic journal "Perception" by Jacques Ninio and Kent A. Stevens, this illusion went viral after Professor Kitaoka shared it on Facebook and game designer Will Kerslake‏ reposted it on Twitter.
While you should be able to see any dot you look at directly, the dots in your peripheral vision seem to appear and disappear. Why? Well, in simplest terms, our peripheral vision sucks."


(Originally published in Business insider)

So the question is how can we take advantage of this weakness for fighting strategy?
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:20 am

Is it a weakness if one knows about it?
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby Bao on Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:38 am

yes, it's the opponent's weakness and now you know about it. ;)
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:51 am

We view things differently.

If I'm aware of something, what ever it may be its no longer a weakness....it becomes a source of strength,
its called acting or moving with awareness .

good topic ;)
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby Bao on Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:49 am

windwalker wrote:We view things differently.

If I'm aware of something, what ever it may be its no longer a weakness....it becomes a source of strength,
its called acting or moving with awareness .


Most people don't have this kind of awareness. Most people believe that they are more aware and more in control than they are. People can be very easily tricked if you know how to lead their awareness. Illusionist have known this and used this knowledge for centuries. MA-artists might use it to some extent...

windwalker wrote: good topic ;)


8-) -toast-
Last edited by Bao on Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby David Boxen on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:35 am

If you try and look at any of the dots you are not using peripheral vision. Is this not not really about how limited our foveal vision is?
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby Bao on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:53 am

David Boxen wrote:If you try and look at any of the dots you are not using peripheral vision. Is this not not really about how limited our foveal vision is?


I have no idea. Ask the scientists. But it's when you don't look directly at dots they disappear.

Foveal might be the wrong term, but anyway, it's a confusing term used in different ways:

"Foveal vision" is also used more loosely to mean any sort of central vision, with a wide variety of conflicting definitions."

(Quora, but I am no eye doctor, so I have no idea if it's true. )
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby Steve James on Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:02 am

It just shows that you won't see some things if you look directly. Most of what we "see" is peripheral. We avoid many accidents because of what we see out of the corner of our eyes. It may suckered, but it works.
Last edited by Steve James on Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby Bao on Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:55 pm

Steve James wrote:It just shows that you won't see some things if you look directly.


Uh... yes? Showing that was the whole point of the picture.
Thoughts on Tai Chi (My Tai Chi blog)
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- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby Trick on Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:42 pm

windwalker wrote:We view things differently.

If I'm aware of something, what ever it may be its no longer a weakness....it becomes a source of strength,
its called acting or moving with awareness .

good topic ;)

Yes, be aware where the dots are
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby marvin8 on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:09 pm

Bao wrote:Oh, it really does. The annoying part of the story is that we can't do anything about it. And here is the proof:

Image

"There are a total of 12 black dots in this image, but you can't see them all at once.

First published in 2000 in the academic journal "Perception" by Jacques Ninio and Kent A. Stevens, this illusion went viral after Professor Kitaoka shared it on Facebook and game designer Will Kerslake‏ reposted it on Twitter.
While you should be able to see any dot you look at directly, the dots in your peripheral vision seem to appear and disappear. Why? Well, in simplest terms, our peripheral vision sucks."


(Originally published in Business insider)

So the question is how can we take advantage of this weakness for fighting strategy?


Your image was too big and cut off a column and dots. Here is a smaller version:
Image
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby marvin8 on Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:26 am

Bao wrote:Most people don't have this kind of awareness. Most people believe that they are more aware and more in control than they are. People can be very easily tricked if you know how to lead their awareness. Illusionist have known this and used this knowledge for centuries. MA-artists might use it to some extent...

windwalker wrote: good topic ;)


8-) -toast-

Edit: This body punch to overhand right might be considered an out of peripheral vision shot.

ESNEWS
Published on Dec 9, 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjd9xAomGoA

Another punch is the up jab, @ 7:52.

Ian Streetz
Published on Nov 10, 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rPs112Vw9g

The blinding jab can be left out to block the peripheral vision of an opponent, followed up by a right hand.

Lee Wylie Boxing
Published on Oct 7, 2015:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9HjUNI01q4
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby Giles on Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:20 am

Bao wrote:Oh, it really does. The annoying part of the story is that we can't do anything about it. And here is the proof

..............................................

So the question is how can we take advantage of this weakness for fighting strategy?


I ain't no vision specialist and I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but:

I'm pretty sure that if the 12 dots were moving around a little, then we would be able to see them much better. Also, small immobile points (or objects) at the edge of vision may vanish for us, but larger stationary objects, such as another human body within a few metres, are still visible in the sense that we can perceive and judge their position them even if not 'clearly' see them. As is actually common knowledge in the martial arts world, we can respond to moving objects, also ones moving towards us, more swiftly and efficiently using our peripheral vision than direct vision. Details of form, colour etc. may vanish but we can perceive and process direction and speed better than with a direct gaze. So in the sense of an ongoing fight, I'd say that peripheral vision works more for us than against us.

The weakness can be exploited if you're setting up an ambush, maybe. But here at RSF we're nice people and don't go around ambushing others, right? ;)
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby Bao on Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:50 am

Giles wrote:I ain't no vision specialist and I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong, but:

I'm pretty sure that if the 12 dots were moving around a little, then we would be able to see them much better. Also, small immobile points (or objects) at the edge of vision may vanish for us, but larger stationary objects, such as another human body within a few metres, are still visible in the sense that we can perceive and judge their position them even if not 'clearly' see them. As is actually common knowledge in the martial arts world, we can respond to moving objects, also ones moving towards us, more swiftly and efficiently using our peripheral vision than direct vision. Details of form, colour etc. may vanish but we can perceive and process direction and speed better than with a direct gaze. So in the sense of an ongoing fight, I'd say that peripheral vision works more for us than against us.


I understand your points. But I still think that there is something about attention, focus and awareness. Maybe a person who has sparred a lot and has entered many competitions would have a different trained awareness than the common thug on the street?

Like these ones are other examples. When you focus strongly on one thing, other things happening outside your direct path of vision, or central vision. Some people are more easily fooled than others. Now you probably wont be fooled at all, but anyway...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNF9QNEQLA


So what this means is that it is possible to attract attention to a certain movement, object etc and make a person less aware of what happens outside the central vision. If things happens very fast, a certain type of move might be enough to draw the attention so you can do something without the person even notice what's happening. This is what professional illusionists use all of the time. A person who understand what a magician do will see what's happening. Others who have no clue will be easily fooled.

The weakness can be exploited if you're setting up an ambush, maybe. But here at RSF we're nice people and don't go around ambushing others, right? ;)


Tell that to J.W. ;D
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- Storms make oaks take deeper root. -George Herbert
- To affect the quality of the day, is the highest of all arts! -Walden Thoreau
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Re: Our peripheral vision sucks

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:09 am

Part of the training that we did in white crane, was to have someone stand in the middle of circle, the other would circle them.
At some point, they would rush in with an attack, the one in the middle of circle was supposed to clap the moment they picked up it,
thus stopping the attack.

The object was to disguise the movement in such a way that the other could not see it and was unaware of it even though they were looking directly at it and understood what the drill was for. The whole point of the drill was to train this...For both people.

But some of Mr. Long's students were street gang members, and a few of them had developed really interesting and unique ways of using White Crane. As usual, I was pushed into sparring with pretty much anyone who walked through Mr. Long's door, and one of the most interesting of his "older" students was a gang member who had a very tricky way of using the Crane style.

I was warned about this in advance by Ron, so I had a little knowledge to start off with, but when we squared off in the middle of the room, he had a very modified version of the crane horse... so modified that you would never know he was taking up any kind of ready position.

He had a way of moving back and forth that was hard to follow, and completely disguised what he was up to. And he was kind of magical in the way he could draw your attention over "here" then slip quickly into a crane postion and attack you over "there" that was really hard to track.

"mike staples"


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26046&p=443772&hilit=burning+palm&sid=d2e97ebcd7c5ec9626f57cfd73572b6c#p443772


There were people who could close the gap before a person could clap even looking directly at them while they did, just was there were others that one could not approach with out them being aware of it.

This was part of training awareness, like many things is a combination of all senses not just one.

Our eyes are designed to pick up certain types of movements, colors and shapes.... All of which can be enhanced through training depending on usage and need. Its said that those living in the rain forest can see things that those living in cities can not, and those living in the rain forest might not have any way of seeing something that they see in a city thats to far out what they would normally see...Each with training can change this.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
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