new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:54 am

When I taught large classes we didn't move our feet for the first hour
Doing things that included,Huangs 5 exercises,Tien kan,Wu 24 noi gung,
This is standing and moving at the same time
You don't have to do static postures to get their benefits
I remember a friend of mine who taught Jow gar asking me what I was doing to my students
He had a new member fill out a form stating why he left his previous school
He wrote down it hurt too much
He was talking about the standing and walking
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby robert on Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:55 am

Rhen wrote:Like John said- sometimes Taiji is not enough for cardio health. Scientific studies in China indicate that for younger people, cardiographs of the heart did not improve. The athletes needs more cardio to get stronger heart. There was only a specific group that got improvement in the heart: elderly.

This doesn't make sense to me. There are different levels of taijiquan. Taiji for health is not the same as martial taiji. If you want to spar according to amateur boxing rules - 3, 3 minute rounds, you'll find you need pretty good cardio. Fast forms, weapon training, push hands, and san shou are part of Chen taijiquan training. Opinions differ on running, but I know that at least one taijiquan school in Chen village has the serious students run 5 or 6 kilometers each morning. People who are competing or plan to compete will do walking kick sets and other forms of training.
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:44 pm

Bao wrote:Standing exercises were there in the beginning of tai chi and before tai chi.

The 13 Tai Bo ZZ training existed long before the Taiji system was created. The main purpose of it is to develop certain MA ability. It was not designed just for "health" or "Chi floating".

13 太保 (Tai Bo)
 
1. 旱地拔葱 (Han Di Ba Cong) Pull onion off a dry ground
2. 李奎磨斧 (Li Kui Mo Fu) Li Kui sharps the axe
3. 仙人照鏡 (Xian Ren Zhao Jing) Angle look at mirror
4. 钝链割谷 (Dun Lian Ge Gu) Dull sickle cut rice
5. 舍身探海 (She Shen Tan Hai) Sacristy body and dive into ocean
6. 魁 星点斗 (Kui Xing Dian Dou) Kui Xing points at star
7. 烏龍戏水 (Wu Long Xi Shui) Black dragon plays with water
8. 羅漢观天 (Luo Han Guan Tian) Lou Han looks at sky
9. 燕子超水 (Yan Zi Chao Shui) Swallow skips water
10. 合卧 (He Wo) Combine stance
11. 古樹盤根 (Gu Shu Pan Gen) Old tree twist the root
12. 托天式 (Tuo Tian Shi) Lift the sky
13. 三平 (San Ping) Three plains
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:58 pm

Bit hard to imagine without description or video
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:07 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Bit hard to imagine without description or video

8. 羅漢观天 (Luo Han Guan Tian) Lou Han looks at sky

This ZZ can make sure that you won't have "hunch back" when you get old. It's the ZZ that I recommend to people the most.

Image

Here is the MA application.

Image

Image
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby suckinlhbf on Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:35 pm

I don't have a problem with it


I don't have a problem with it too as long as they don't call it Chinese Martial Arts.
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:09 pm

Are those the ones you mentioned John
Only 11 photos for the 13 postures
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:45 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:
I don't have a problem with it


I don't have a problem with it too as long as they don't call it Chinese Martial Arts.


As a young man I took on all that question what' CMA was and whether it was effective.

I don't have a problem with it now understanding what others do is not what I do or represents my own practice. Its their practice and those that follow it.

What they call it matters little to me.
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:00 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Are those the ones you mentioned John
Only 11 photos for the 13 postures

All the 13 ZZ can be seen in this short form. I have linked it into a short form for remembering purpose. The order is not important.

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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:04 pm

suckinlhbf wrote:I don't have a problem with it too as long as they don't call it Chinese Martial Arts.

I prefer the attitude as:

If CMA doesn't have this in the past. CMA will have this from now on.
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby robert on Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:37 pm

When I first started martial arts I learned a standing set from a Praying Mantis guy in Taiwan. IIRC there were 8 postures, held on both sides, and the postures were linked into a form. Horse stance, climb the mountain, bow stance, cat stance, empty stance, 7 star, rooster, and mantis. I'm not sure the sequence is correct.
Try not to let the words confuse you — they serve no other purpose than to guide you into the inner structures of Taiji. Chen Xin
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:46 pm

robert wrote:When I first started martial arts I learned a standing set from a Praying Mantis guy in Taiwan. IIRC there were 8 postures, held on both sides, and the postures were linked into a form. Horse stance, climb the mountain, bow stance, cat stance, empty stance, 7 star, rooster, and mantis. I'm not sure the sequence is correct.

Long fist system uses 8 basic stances as ZZ training as well. Again, the purpose is to develop correct stances and not for "health" or "Chi development".
Last edited by johnwang on Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby robert on Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:06 pm

johnwang wrote:Long fist system uses 8 basic stances as ZZ training as well. Again, the purpose is to develop correct stances and not for "heal" or "Chi development".

From my experiences with taiji, xingyi, and bagua (that has standing) it is about correct stances/posture. In standing you learn chen jin, ding jin, fang song, how to calm the mind, etc. When you get some thing working you carry it into pi quan, silk reeling, or circle walking. It's easier to focus on the postural requirements when you're not moving. Good teachers say as much. In Fu Zhongwen's book Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan he describes the first posture, Preparatory Posture, and the postural requirements, and says that most of the points apply to all the movements in the form.
Try not to let the words confuse you — they serve no other purpose than to guide you into the inner structures of Taiji. Chen Xin
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:40 pm

robert wrote:From my experiences with taiji, xingyi, and bagua (that has standing) it is about correct stances/posture.

The "tree hugging" is 100% for health. It doesn't have an martial value.

Image
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby Appledog on Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:57 pm

johnwang wrote:
Bao wrote:Standing exercises were there in the beginning of tai chi and before tai chi.

The 13 Tai Bo ZZ training existed long before the Taiji system was created. The main purpose of it is to develop certain MA ability. It was not designed just for "health" or "Chi floating".


I find this interesting from a historical standpoint. Do you know which arts trained this 13 Tai Bo (I assume, tai bu "big steps?") and do you have any other information about it? I tried looking it up online, but the only information I could find is in Chinese, and I'm still studying Chinese.

Of course I am looking to find out, why the number 13, and if there is any connection to the 13 postures (i.e. peng and so forth). It looks like obviously not based on the posture names (and associated media). Thanks.

Great thread :)
Last edited by Appledog on Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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