new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:38 pm

Appledog wrote:I find this interesting from a historical standpoint. Do you know which arts trained this 13 Tai Bo (I assume, tai bu "big steps?") and do you have any other information about it? I tried looking it up online, but the only information I could find is in Chinese, and I'm still studying Chinese.

Of course I am looking to find out, why the number 13, and if there is any connection to the 13 postures (i.e. peng and so forth). It looks like obviously not based on the posture names (and associated media). Thanks.

Great thread :)

"13 Taibo" was the 1st gang group that existed in Taiwan during 1950. The 2nd gang group in Taiwan was "一条龙(Yi Tiao Long) - One Dragon".

The term "太保 (Tai Bo)" in the ancient time was the prince's teacher. This person didn't have any power but since he could influence the future emperor, he had a lot of indirect power. In CMA, 13 太保 (Tai Bo) are not CMA skill. But it can enhance a lot of CMA skills. The original of it cannot be traced. It was used as the "foundation training" for many MA systems such as Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling). If you train SC, the first thing that people will ask you can be "Do you train 13 Taibo and 24 Shi?" It has nothing to do with Taiji 13 Shi.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby Trick on Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:50 pm

wayne hansen wrote:Are those the ones you mentioned John
Only 11 photos for the 13 postures

12-13 guy in the "prevent hunch back position", and "lazily being bear hugged posture" guy in red spandex 8-) ........ But seriously interesting about the 13-Taibo postures, would like to get more info about it
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby Trick on Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:52 pm

johnwang wrote:
Appledog wrote:I find this interesting from a historical standpoint. Do you know which arts trained this 13 Tai Bo (I assume, tai bu "big steps?") and do you have any other information about it? I tried looking it up online, but the only information I could find is in Chinese, and I'm still studying Chinese.

Of course I am looking to find out, why the number 13, and if there is any connection to the 13 postures (i.e. peng and so forth). It looks like obviously not based on the posture names (and associated media). Thanks.

Great thread :)

"13 Taibo" was the 1st gang group that existed in Taiwan during 1950. The 2nd gang group in Taiwan was "一条龙(Yi Tiao Long) - One Dragon".

The term "太保 (Tai Bo)" in the ancient time was the prince's teacher. This person didn't have any power but since he could influence the future emperor, he had a lot of indirect power. In CMA, 13 太保 (Tai Bo) are not CMA skill. But it can enhance a lot of CMA skills. The original of it cannot be traced. It was used as the "foundation training" for many MA systems such as Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling). If you train SC, the first thing that people will ask you can be "Do you train 13 Taibo and 24 Shi?" It has nothing to do with Taiji 13 Shi.

Interesting, thanks
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby Yuen-Ming on Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:24 am

There are different variations of the 13 Taibao but the most common one was famously practiced by Bao Ding who introduced it into his Xingyi curriculum. At about the same time, it was introduced also in other schools but by itself it is a neigong set. I have published and translated the first few poses from Bao Ding’s original writing in an article a few years ago

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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby wayne hansen on Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:33 pm

Is there a link to the article or any reference on YouTube other than the one John supplied
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby johnwang on Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:33 pm

Trick wrote:would like to get more info about it


Here are some clips to share.





Last edited by johnwang on Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby willie on Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:52 am

Going back to the original post. I don't truly believe that it's a new generation problem. Up until these last few years with my new teacher. I have been taught and believed that the truly martial part of Tai Chi is Push Hands. Now I know that that is incorrect. The actual highest levels of Tai Chi that I have ever experienced come from repeating the applications from the forms over and over again until perfection and then learning how to apply them in a real confrontation. So in order to achieve that level one should limit or abstain from any freestyle Push Hands.
Last edited by willie on Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby Appledog on Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:02 am

willie wrote:Going back to the original post. I don't truly believe that it's a new generation problem. Up until these last few years with my new teacher. I have been taught and believed that the truly martial part of Tai Chi is Push Hands. Now I know that that is incorrect. The actual highest levels of Tai Chi that I have ever experienced come from repeating the applications from the forms over and over again until perfection and then learning how to apply them in a real confrontation. So in order to achieve that level one should limit or abstain from any freestyle Push Hands.


I also dislike freestyle push hands.
Last edited by Appledog on Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:41 am

That depends as what freestyle pushing is
Not all see it the same
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby willie on Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:18 pm

wayne hansen wrote:That depends as what freestyle pushing is
Not all see it the same


hi wayne, i'm sure that most if not all will disagree with me and that is fine.
What I have found and have been learning is a very strong application orientated expression of Chen taichi.
I couldn't be happier with the training and the results.

In the past, push-hands to me has always been a way to test my skill level against resisting opponents. Problem is
that it is not cultivating taichi. taichi has been corrupted for a very long time. It's not new wavers.
Last summer I did quite a lot of push-hands with someone who claims master level. he's good, I will give him that, but
there is no sign of true application from taichi anywhere. So whats the point of learning all those forms and app's if
they are tossed away before the push-hands even starts? truth is that he has NO understanding of application, why?
Because the attitude and teaching methods changed from mastering taichi to "just go do push-hands". While
that seems to be a good thing because your dealing with a resisting opponent, It is actually a bad thing because
even after hundreds of similar events, the app's are still not there. Push-hands is fun, Disciplining yourself is not.
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:31 pm

I find resisting to be a funny word
Most people I see working with resisting opponents are working with people using dumb force
My criteria is always would this work against someone with a knife
No one in real life grabs you to lock u in one place
They grab with intention
Either to set you up for a blow or to lead you somewhere else like a throw or trip
I was training a Dutch guy who trained with all the leading CMC people
He came to me one day and said
You are the only person I have trained with whose exercises,form ,pushing ,weapons ,sparing and self defence all relate to one another
I looked at him and said
Hilker how do think it was meant to be
Pushing should be a freestyle version of application
Application should have all the qualities of pushing and form
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby willie on Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:22 pm

Very interesting post Wayne. we do not even segregate application from wrestling from Push Hands or striking, they are all one all the time.
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Re: new generation Taijiquan and the cults of non-sense

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:17 pm

Nor do we
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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