Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:54 am

[quote="oragami_itto"][quote="MistyMonkeyMethod"]Those are some very ambiguous statements.

If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that if you know TJQ, you can kick to the same level as for example a competent karateka or a muay thai fighter?[/quote]

A competent tjq fighter should be able to employ kicks as effectively in a fight, yeah[/quote]



Monkey most unambiguous answer I have for you. YES. Now find someone who has taken the time to KNOW Tai chi, this is where lies the ambiguity.
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:05 am

MistyMonkeyMethod wrote:Sure, that is the classic context that I've been shown, but how often does one get in to such a situation where this is applicable, personally not so much and consequently the skill is devoid of a live environment that is the fertile soil for its development. In a contemporary sparring framework, ring/gloves, this doesn't transfer well at all, particularly when the other guys kicks can take my head off. I leaned that the hard way some time ago, and altered my training accordingly.


I don't train for ring/gloves. Doesn't interest me.

I'd add that generally the low foot movements to block kicks and enhance controls have served me far better than any sort of high kick. You adapt your training to your game.
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby MistyMonkeyMethod on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:11 am

Wandering Dragon, I've been training in TJQ since the early 90's, I've also spent a considerable amount of time cross training and sparring witg numerous groups, styles and such. My experience has been rather consistent. Sure, perhaps there's a unicorn out there somewhere, but realistically I believe in experience, not unicorns.

Don't get me wrong, I live to learn and love being proven wrong, investing in loss right, so if you can do that with more than ambiguous words, I'd be very grateful, but I have heard this sort of talk more than once and it rarely delivers, still I'm open to be schooled and you have my thanks in advance, should you deliver.
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby MistyMonkeyMethod on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:13 am

oragami_itto wrote:
MistyMonkeyMethod wrote:Sure, that is the classic context that I've been shown, but how often does one get in to such a situation where this is applicable, personally not so much and consequently the skill is devoid of a live environment that is the fertile soil for its development. In a contemporary sparring framework, ring/gloves, this doesn't transfer well at all, particularly when the other guys kicks can take my head off. I leaned that the hard way some time ago, and altered my training accordingly.


I don't train for ring/gloves. Doesn't interest me.

I'd add that generally the low foot movements to block kicks and enhance controls have served me far better than any sort of high kick. You adapt your training to your game.


That's cool, different strokes, for different folks.
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby Ron Panunto on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:36 am

Taiji is not a kicking art like taekwondo. It has a different strategy for success, and that is to always close the distance with your opponent and then constantly crowd him so that if he went to lift his leg to kick you would push him over. You should be all over him like stink on shit. And as far as Taiji kicks, every time you step forward you kick him inn the shin then rake down. Don't ever give him the space or opportunity for him to kick you.
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:51 am

Monkey, it is the purist's argument. If you don't understand the external fundamentals you cannot grasp the reality of the internal skill. Now when I say to know tai chi, I mean one must know the foundation and be versed in internal principle to apply internal skills to all that you do. After all " Grand Ultimate " , is the apex, right ? To me the original query is indicative of misunderstanding
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:40 am

I don't know anyone who has applied tai chi in the ring
But I do know those who have used it in real life situations
Tai chi is not a ring craft neither is karate or Muay Thai if we take the UFC as the yardstick
You must train in a certain way to fit that format
When I hear of someone who has trainer since the 90's I think they started after most of the crap had taken over.
When I hear of someone who cross trains I think they haven't devoted themselves completely to one art
The kicks of tai chi are complete and there is no reason why they are not trained on a bag or pads
They are not used in the same way as many other arts
The roundhouse kick exists between retreat to ride tiger and swinging lotus kick but is deguised as a spin
It is a devastating kick to the thigh of your opponent but never used much higher than that
In training there are parameters that teach the art in combat they may seem to vanish
Training is training,combat is combat,competition is competition
Don't get the 3 confused
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby MistyMonkeyMethod on Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:22 pm

Violence and violent encounters are not a fixed phenomenon. Preparing for a violent encounter in a static way is a contradictory. It's taking form over function, whereas the function should dictate the form (form here meaning just that, not a TJQ form). Since the problem (violence) is impossible to defined due to its multivariate nature, the solution, likewise, can't be fixed.

I'd say it likely comes down to how often you pressure test your art, or even better how often you get tested in an unscripted, unprepared manner? For me, this has been a lifelong thing, from school, to work, its more or less a constant.

On the other hand, I've met many practitioners who are content with what they teach/learn, across the spectrum (self defence, combatives, sport, etc.) and I can see why they take such a backseat in their development, no testing, no pressure, no variability. They don't step outside their comfort zone. This however isn't suitable for variable, unpredictable, violent encounters and environments.

Furthermore, I've travelled extensively and met many highly praised, respected masters from numerous styles, in Japan, Korea, China and numerous other countries in Asia who despite their talk and massive following, couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, not only that, the physical condition many of them were in, left much to be desired. One commonality between them, they are happy with their practice and don't step out of their paradigm, comfort zone. It's quite delusional.

For me, such approaches are useless and will likely end disaster. The world is unpredictable, so is the violence inherent in it, I need to be able to fight under any circumstance, with anyone.

Does a traditional TJQ curriculum allow you to do that? Have you gone out and tested it in numerous environments? Has it been tested in an unscripted environment? Did it stand the test?

If the answer to any of these is no, I'd say it's largely a faith based practice.

For me, I'd rather adapt and evolve according to experience, collect the weapons/skills/tools that allow me to deal with the problems I encounter, willingly or otherwise.

Do you not think you should be able to perform under any context? If you do, how do you test yourself?

I have drifted a bit off topic, but I think it's an important point to address as this is the difference between form and function. I'm sure you know what is said about best laid plans too.

As for kicks, I don't see a mechanical difference in performance. This is only lack of practicing specific skill. If you truly know your principles, you should be able to apply them across the board, but as with anything, practice and testing is key.

But of course, it is your experience (function) which will dictate your opinion (form), and these are highly personal and individual things, but isn't the point in TJQ to be formless, unhindered, unlimited, for me it is, and that's what I work towards.
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:37 pm

wayne hansen wrote:If you can't see it look deeper

No matter how deep that you may look, in Taiji you will never be able to find:

- flying side kick.
- jumping back hook kick.
- flying knee.
- leg lift throw.
- ...

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I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby wayne hansen on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:12 pm

You are right John it doesn't have any of those nor does it have a triple to loop or superman punch.
It is what it is and needs no more
Misty my art has been tested and never found wanting
You can never train for some situations
I had the pleasure of training with the most senior students of Antonio Illustrismo
Tatang was tested in many fights to the death and his students were similar types
They convinced my training was on the right path and I have never had reason to doubt it
You are right a lot of tai chi is lacking and most of the weakest stuff I have seen is done by people who cross train or compete in competition
I say what I say just to let those who wish to train these arts that if they train them in the right manner they will be enough
Violence is everywhere and no matter how hard you train it won't stop you getting run over from behind on a cycle way
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:59 pm

Wouldn't the better question be "how does taiji deal with a roundhouse kick" to understand why it does not
have an obvious "roundhouse kick"

calling something a name does not always make it so.

For most CMA arts IME kicking is a secondary skill set not the primary.
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby Trick on Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:19 am

MistyMonkeyMethod wrote:.
Furthermore, I've travelled extensively and met many highly praised, respected masters from numerous styles, in Japan, Korea, China and numerous other countries in Asia who despite their talk and massive following, couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, not only that, the physical condition many of them were in, left much to be desired. One commonality between them, they are happy with their practice and don't step out of their paradigm, comfort zone. It's quite delusional.

For me, such approaches are useless and will likely end disaster. The world is unpredictable, so is the violence inherent in it, I need to be able to fight under any circumstance, with anyone.
.

Yeah, God forbid the blasphemous practitioners that don't practice for death fights. In today's violent world of martial arts we must all prepare our selfs to fight in the cage, those who don't must vanish 8-)
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby oragami_itto on Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:22 am

That's why I train Rex Kwon Do
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby MistyMonkeyMethod on Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:25 am

Trick wrote:
MistyMonkeyMethod wrote:.
Furthermore, I've travelled extensively and met many highly praised, respected masters from numerous styles, in Japan, Korea, China and numerous other countries in Asia who despite their talk and massive following, couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag, not only that, the physical condition many of them were in, left much to be desired. One commonality between them, they are happy with their practice and don't step out of their paradigm, comfort zone. It's quite delusional.

For me, such approaches are useless and will likely end disaster. The world is unpredictable, so is the violence inherent in it, I need to be able to fight under any circumstance, with anyone.
.

Yeah, God forbid the blasphemous practitioners that don't practice for death fights. In today's violent world of martial arts we must all prepare our selfs to fight in the cage, those who don't must vanish 8-)


There can be no other way! ;)
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Re: Why doesn't Taiji have "roundhouse kick"?

Postby Steve James on Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:29 am

Aw, shuaijiao doesn't have a roundhouse kick either. Does xingyi have an axe kick? I think windwalker's suggestion that the question is how a tcc practitioner deals with a crescent or any other kick. Clearly, it isn't possible for any art to contain every technique. And, afa a real fight, kiss. For competitions, the rules determine the tools.
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