It's just a step to the left...

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: It's just a step to the left...

Postby everything on Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:42 am

there must have been a precursor art or arts.

unless we want to believe that some guy in a mountain or a village just invented a martial art from scratch. that hypothesis is ridiculous so it must be the other one.
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Re: It's just a step to the left...

Postby Steve James on Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:02 am

A mythical founder is much more practical for a society. Once something of social or cultural value is claimed by a family, the social value is negated. Somebody started martial arts in China. Afa a name, your guess is as good as anyone else's. All CMA came from that. It's unlikely that he or she did everything seen in mas today. And the usefulness or benefits of practicing have nothing to do with the inventor, let alone any of his family or descendants.
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Re: It's just a step to the left...

Postby Ron Panunto on Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:14 am

everything wrote:there must have been a precursor art or arts.

unless we want to believe that some guy in a mountain or a village just invented a martial art from scratch. that hypothesis is ridiculous so it must be the other one.


If you're referring to Chen Wangting as "some guy in a mountain village" I would take issue with that. He was a general in the army and was well aware of Qi Qiguangs work to identify the best martial arts of the era, much of which he included in his Taij.
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Re: It's just a step to the left...

Postby wayne hansen on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:43 am

I think it is pretty well documented the arts Chen borrowed from
As Wu tu nan said in front of the Chen leadership
It is all just Shaolin red fist
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Re: It's just a step to the left...

Postby everything on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:54 am

Ron Panunto wrote:
everything wrote:there must have been a precursor art or arts.

unless we want to believe that some guy in a mountain or a village just invented a martial art from scratch. that hypothesis is ridiculous so it must be the other one.


If you're referring to Chen Wangting as "some guy in a mountain village" I would take issue with that. He was a general in the army and was well aware of Qi Qiguangs work to identify the best martial arts of the era, much of which he included in his Taij.


a general in the army would have access to all kinds of precursor arts and then his art is by definition "mixed" martial arts. which means if taijiquan was his "invention" or his personal art growing out of his studies, original taijiquan was an "mma" of sorts, like all other ma are/were. if there were some mythical figure before that, about which all knowledge is now lost, that mythical figure didn't "invent" an art by staring at his navel, either.

side note: since taijiquan or whatever we want to call chen's art was an "mma", not sure why some people get upset if someone knows or learns something from some other art. doesn't make sense. same point from that mythical founder thread. not directed at anyone in particular
Last edited by everything on Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: It's just a step to the left...

Postby robert on Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:41 pm

everything wrote:there must have been a precursor art or arts.

Yes, but if we were able to keep tracing back at some point there is someone who combined daoyin and a martial art.

everything wrote:unless we want to believe that some guy in a mountain or a village just invented a martial art from scratch. that hypothesis is ridiculous so it must be the other one.

I don't see it as inventing a martial art from scratch - I think at some point someone combined daoyin with a martial art. I suspect they just modified an existing martial art.
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Re: It's just a step to the left...

Postby robert on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:06 pm

I tend to think there was a precursor art because, historically, xingyi & taiji trace back to about the same time period. However, calculus was developed by both Newton & Liebniz independently; boolean algebra was applied to switching circuit theory by Shannon & Shestakov working independently. I suspect there are many other examples. Anything outside historical data is speculation ...
Last edited by robert on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's just a step to the left...

Postby Trick on Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:17 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I think it is pretty well documented the arts Chen borrowed from
As Wu tu nan said in front of the Chen leadership
It is all just Shaolin red fist

Wu Tunan borrowed it from the Yang family,and Yang Luchan borrowed it from the Chen family, and the Chen family borrowed it from......?....Stories about military men occasionally sought "shelter" in the Shaolin temple might suggest the temple "borrowed" it from men well versed in combat and warfare, things of "inner" practice might have been added by peaceful temple residents?
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Re: It's just a step to the left...

Postby robert on Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:21 pm

From the book Chen Style Taijiquan: The Source of Taiji Boxing by David Gaffney, Davidine Siaw-Voon Sim

The original Taijiquan created by Chen Wangting contained five sets of forms (one set of Shishanshi [13 postures], 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th routine sets) one set of Changquan (Long Fist) consisting of 108 forms; and one set of Paocui (Cannon Fist), making seven sets total. These also incorporated skills from the Shaolin Red Fist, Shaolin Staff, and "Buddha's Warrior Eighteen Grasping Techniques." Chen also added techniques From other well known martial artists of the time, For example, Zhang BaIing's striking (da); Li Bantien's legwork (ti); Eagle Claw Wang's grasping (na); and Thousand—FalI Zhang's take-downs (shuai & die).

It is said that Chen Changxing took these routines and combined them into laojia yilu and erlu. Since CCX was YLC's teacher it's possible that 13 postures refers to this early Chen form. If that is the case the idea of 8 jin/methods + 5 steps doesn't make as much sense to me as what Ron posted previously.
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