The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Finny on Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:25 pm

Yeah I always thought it was common knowledge that there was a hakka base to their art. I know Master Sam was quite open about it.. he showed me his phoenix eye fist (covered in scars) and mentioned that he used it when he was younger - I had the impression that was one of the influences

I think the combination of ILQ with WCK can work very well, if the person in question can drill and combine the skill sets. I fear there are some elements which explicitly contradict each other, and the practitioner (or KK, as the leader) may need to find a way to reconcile these differences - one can't do both at times, by definition.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby northern_mantis on Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:02 am

RobP3 wrote:I heard from a couple of his guys that he was adding a lot of Systema into his work, FWIW.


I don’t know why people are so secretive about their influences. I unashamedly take influence from systema and other stuff. In fact I thought systema was so good I almost thought about starting from scratch with it. But then I figured why throw the baby out with the bath water, martial arts at a high level is all one thing, no need to put a label on it.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Eric_H on Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:19 pm

I've met master Chin a few times and had his student Ashe as my main sparring partner for a while. I think ILC is a great combination internal art, and I'm sure Kernspecht's students will benefit from it.

I disagree that it's going to "help their WC" though. It's just going to add something else into it as they've been doing with systema and other arts for some time. If they feel their their WC is incomplete, then that's going to be an interesting new perspective for them.
Last edited by Eric_H on Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby johnwang on Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:21 pm

If your WC can do this, you don't need anything else.

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby jonathan.bluestein on Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:50 pm

I have seen two people here already comment that there are Systema influences upon material taught in the EWTO. I have asked master Kenrspecht of this and his answer was explicit:

"There are absolutely no SYSTEMA INFLUENCES in our WingTsun!".

I am not sure who spreads these rumours, but they are untrue. Neither does master Kernspecht have any reason to hide such influences if they ever existed. He actively and openly incorporated Escrima, MMA and now ZXD into the EWTO as separate classes and many of his student and grand-students learned these arts. He himself holds high ranks in Escrima and Jon Bluming's Karate and has practiced them for many years. In his books he details over a dozen styles he practiced during his lifetime and specifies each of their respective teachers and the periods during which he studied with them. Had there been any Systema influences, he would have said so.
Last edited by jonathan.bluestein on Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby dspyrido on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:25 pm

"The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation"?

Having multi-dimensionality and circularity in every part of the art. Every movement has a forward and back, a left and right, an up and down, an expanding and contracting.

• Emphasizing balance, and therefore also relaxation (A Confucian idea – the balanced person can also become relaxed).

• Having a clear separation of Yin & Yang - very simple energy management that acts upon a powerful movement motor and takes its effect with the help of a clear structure.

• Natural opening & closing of the joints; utilizing the power of the joints & fascia through horizontal rotation and the a lot of shifting of one’s bodyweight from one side to the other.

• The use of indirect rather than direct forces. Multi-vectored attacks.

• Specific use of convex & concave body mechanics.

• Sticking to the physical contact point, including the use of suction. Compelling the opponent to remain in contact by creating and offering a sphere with corresponding pressure.

• No resistance, but not the opposite either – giving way or running away from the point!

• No automatic, blind reactions. Rather, acting in the Zen-Buddhist sense described by his friend Prof. Tiwald; of being mindful and fully conscious in action for as much as one's own skill level allows.


Out of these points I can safely say 7 out of the 9 points where taught in wc. The others that might be questioned ... well it's potentially down to semantics.

What/where is the internal revelation?
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby HotSoup on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:43 pm

jonathan.bluestein wrote:I have seen two people here already comment that there are Systema influences upon material taught in the EWTO. I have asked master Kenrspecht of this and his answer was explicit:

"There are absolutely no SYSTEMA INFLUENCES in our WingTsun!".

I am not sure who spreads these rumours, but they are untrue. Neither does master Kernspecht have any reason to hide such influences if they ever existed. He actively and openly incorporated Escrima, MMA and now ZXD into the EWTO as separate classes and many of his student and grand-students learned these arts. He himself holds high ranks in Escrima and Jon Bluming's Karate and has practiced them for many years. In his books he details over a dozen styles he practiced during his lifetime and specifies each of their respective teachers and the periods during which he studied with them. Had there been any Systema influences, he would have said so.


Black marketing? When people related to the Russian special forces hear the claims that Systema was what they were taught for the hand-to-hand combat, they have reactions akin to yours ;)
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Eric_H on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:56 pm

jonathan.bluestein wrote:I have seen two people here already comment that there are Systema influences upon material taught in the EWTO. I have asked master Kenrspecht of this and his answer was explicit:

"There are absolutely no SYSTEMA INFLUENCES in our WingTsun!".

I am not sure who spreads these rumours, but they are untrue. Neither does master Kernspecht have any reason to hide such influences if they ever existed. He actively and openly incorporated Escrima, MMA and now ZXD into the EWTO as separate classes and many of his student and grand-students learned these arts. He himself holds high ranks in Escrima and Jon Bluming's Karate and has practiced them for many years. In his books he details over a dozen styles he practiced during his lifetime and specifies each of their respective teachers and the periods during which he studied with them. Had there been any Systema influences, he would have said so.


I think a lot of it comes from whatever they're doing here:
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby RobP3 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:04 pm

jonathan.bluestein wrote:I have seen two people here already comment that there are Systema influences upon material taught in the EWTO. I have asked master Kenrspecht of this and his answer was explicit:

"There are absolutely no SYSTEMA INFLUENCES in our WingTsun!".

I am not sure who spreads these rumours, but they are untrue. Neither does master Kernspecht have any reason to hide such influences if they ever existed. He actively and openly incorporated Escrima, MMA and now ZXD into the EWTO as separate classes and many of his student and grand-students learned these arts. He himself holds high ranks in Escrima and Jon Bluming's Karate and has practiced them for many years. In his books he details over a dozen styles he practiced during his lifetime and specifies each of their respective teachers and the periods during which he studied with them. Had there been any Systema influences, he would have said so.


I'm only saying what those two separate guys told me, like I said, I have no other further info nor any particular interest tbh
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby RobP3 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:06 pm

HotSoup wrote:
jonathan.bluestein wrote:I have seen two people here already comment that there are Systema influences upon material taught in the EWTO. I have asked master Kenrspecht of this and his answer was explicit:

"There are absolutely no SYSTEMA INFLUENCES in our WingTsun!".

I am not sure who spreads these rumours, but they are untrue. Neither does master Kernspecht have any reason to hide such influences if they ever existed. He actively and openly incorporated Escrima, MMA and now ZXD into the EWTO as separate classes and many of his student and grand-students learned these arts. He himself holds high ranks in Escrima and Jon Bluming's Karate and has practiced them for many years. In his books he details over a dozen styles he practiced during his lifetime and specifies each of their respective teachers and the periods during which he studied with them. Had there been any Systema influences, he would have said so.


Black marketing? When people related to the Russian special forces hear the claims that Systema was what they were taught for the hand-to-hand combat, they have reactions akin to yours ;)


Different strokes. The guys I was chatting to last weekend have a different outlook, as well as a few other "interesting" people I've met in my travels. I don't think VV needs KK for marketing, he seems to be doing ok as it is :)
Last edited by RobP3 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:48 pm

Speaking of marketing, smart move on Sam's part teaming up with Kernspecht. With the number of students K has all over Europe, the potential financial gain from future seminar circuits alone is most likely going to be ginormous. K also gets to learn and add a few internal tricks up his sleeves.

A true win-win situation for both, I'd say. ;)
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Ian on Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:23 pm

Eric_H wrote:I think a lot of it comes from whatever they're doing here:


Nobody else is going to mention this?

Can't we cut through the sales copy and just look at how the guy moves?
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby wayne hansen on Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:01 pm

So is this the guy they are all saying is so good
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Tom on Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:15 pm

jonathan.bluestein wrote:. . .
"There are absolutely no SYSTEMA INFLUENCES in our WingTsun!".
. . . .


No, but I've heard there are significant Wing Chun influences in their Wing Tsun. ;)
Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterward.

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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Appledog on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:08 am

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