The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Eric_H on Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:12 pm

I stand corrected, they were more similar in size than i thought.

For some reason I always though Bozetepe was around 6"3 200+lb and Cheung about 5"7 and 150. Might have been part of the chewbacca defense, it doesn't look like that much of a disparity on a rewatch of the video.
Last edited by Eric_H on Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:18 pm

Eric_H wrote:I love how the WT guys like to bring up the Emin/Cheung thing as something to be proud of.

A dude twice his size blindsided him, took him down and hit him a few times. Then Cheung got up and taught the rest of a several hour seminar. Though Emin very clearly had control for that engagement, I wouldn't call that an ass kicking.

Also that happened in what, the 80's? Is that really the last time the whole org did anything of note?

And as a disclaimer, I don't do TWC. Don't particularly care for it it either.


As far as damage goes, it wasn't any more serious than a schoolyard tussle. The goal, I believe, was simply to embarrass Leung in public and knock him off his high horse.

Leung Ting's camp also went to great lengths to make sure that the video footage got around; according to some of my friends, even the CMA association in Taiwan received a copy of the tape accompanied by a letter shortly after the incident.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Finny on Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:21 pm

Image

He was bigger, stronger and half his age.. that was a disgraceful episode, reflecting poorly on both sides I thought. Of course the LT folks put the tape about - it was purely a marketing exercise. As was the letter Cheung wrote claiming to be the greatest wck fighter out.

And for mine - I was never impressed with either group. Both were started by the most junior of YMs students, who both claimed to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, bilked their students through countless 'levels' and grades, while teaching mechanical, robotic, dogmatic wing chun. i much prefer what I've seen from almost every other YM branch - WSL, LMK, LS etc.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby C.J.W. on Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:43 pm

Eric_H wrote:I stand corrected, they were more similar in size than i thought.

For some reason I always though Bozetepe was around 6"3 200+lb and Cheung about 5"7 and 150. Might have been part of the chewbacca defense, it doesn't look like that much of a disparity on a rewatch of the video.


I've met Boztepe in person back in the 90s and watched him give a seminar. He was in excellent physical shape and built like a linebacker. Whatever he may have lacked in skill, he certainly made up for in athleticism. By his own admission, he'd also done various styles prior to WC and, growing up as a Turkish immigrant in Germany, was no stranger to violent street fights.

Having seen Cheung's application work and considering that Boztepe is 22 years younger, I personally do not think he stood a chance even if the challenge match had been carried out fair and square.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Eric_H on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:27 pm

Finny wrote:. As was the letter Cheung wrote claiming to be the greatest wck fighter out.


Never did see that letter/article, got a copy? I thought he claimed he was the only one Yip Man taught the Leung Bik version of WC to and therefore was better than everyone else.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:59 pm

not a fan of wing chun,,,not my thing
A friend of mine in high school studied with chris chan
a noted wing chun instructor back in SF...in the 70s

Met him once, watched a couple of classes.
He talked of dynamic tension

Chris was very hands on,,,one did not want to get hit by him



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXc5yJ5hdn0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZsgzPD-5Ys


"Footage from Grandmaster Chris Chan's demonstrations around the world, from the historic 1968 Kung Fu exhibition in San Francisco, to the opening of Ip Man Tong in Foshan, China, the "Mecca of Wing Chun".

Grandmaster Chris Chan joined Ip Man's Wing Chun school in 1955. He is the lead instructor at US Wing Chun Kung Fu Academy in San Francisco."
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby windwalker on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:14 pm

Chris, a very approachable guy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdMFuI4NDkM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylaP5VH1w6w


interesting clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9Byn23m6RM

Image

"While training with Great Grandmaster Ip Man, Grandmaster Chan also met and began to train with Bruce Lee. In April of 1959, Bruce left Hong Kong for San Francisco but continued to keep in touch with Grandmaster Chan, relaying the news that the general American public knew nothing about Chinese martial arts and would easily be interested in Wing Chun Kung Fu’s superiority to other martial arts. Bruce advised Grandmaster Chan to immigrate to the United States in order to simultaneously attend college and earn a living teaching Wing Chun.

In 1960, Grandmaster Chan departed for America, but before leaving, he trained extensively for twelve to sixteen hours a day, seven days a week, with Great Grandmaster Ip Man. After arriving in San Francisco, Grandmaster Chan studied engineering and taught Wing Chun. As he began his career as a mechanical engineer, he continued to share his knowledge with the rest of the world."
https://www.uswingchun.com/about-chris-chan


The history is interesting
Last edited by windwalker on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby marvin8 on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:16 pm

Eric_H wrote:
Finny wrote:. As was the letter Cheung wrote claiming to be the greatest wck fighter out.


Never did see that letter/article, got a copy? I thought he claimed he was the only one Yip Man taught the Leung Bik version of WC to and therefore was better than everyone else.


Here are a couple letters.

VING TSUN ATHLETIC ASSOCIATION LTD
3, Nullah Rd., 2C/fl., Kowloon,
Hong Kong Tel 3-816044

Dear Sir,

RE: Point Three of the minutes of the 11th General Meeting

Recently we have received many letters and complaints about a person
called William Cheung who has distorted many affairs with ulterior motive.
As the board of directors of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association -- the
general association of the WHOLE Ving Tsun (Wing Tsun / Wing Chun) system,
which was founded by the late Grandmaster Yip Man and most of his senior
students since 1976, we have the responsibility to clarify the following
points:

1/ William Cheung has NEVER been regarded by anyone of his fellow-students
as the grandmaster or the leader of the whole Wing Chun Clan.

2/ NOBODY is recognized as the so-called "No 1 student of Grandmaster
Yip Man" and we have NEVER heard of William Cheung as the "No. 1 Fighter
of the Wing Chun Style".

3/ "Footwork" in the Wing Chun System is regarded as a most advanced
technique. We do not deny that some of the students of Grandmaster
Yip Man did not learn the whole system, but it is NOT TRUE that
William Cheung is the ONLY person to have ever learnt the entire
Wing Chun System" as what he announced in his advertisement.

4/ There have NEVER been any techniques in our system called "DIM-MAK" or
"Disabling Pressure Points", NOR any so-called "Missing Techniques" since
the creation of the Wing Chun System by Ng Mui.

5/ When Grandmaster Yip Man taught the techniques to his students he asked
NO-ONE "to take an oath not to reveal the secret to anyone during his life
time." He taught according to the potential of his students, teaching
the most advanced techniques to the most talented ones.

In the mid of 50's there had been a kid called William Cheung who had studied
in Grandmaster Yip Man's school for a few years intermittently and left
Hong Kong when he was 18 years old, and since then had become isolated from
his instructor and all the other fellow-students. During his short training
he surely gained the wrong impression in thinking that Grandmaster Yip Man
never taught the advanced techniques to students other than himself. And yet
we do not know how much William Cheung really learned himself.

It is regrettable that his lies have gone so far (i.e. he told the
reporters that Grandmaster Yip Man had taught only him the so-called
"traditional Wing Chun", but had taught all his other students the
"modified Wing Chun").

However, any average person could easily analyze his techniques and see
this statement must be a lie. It is unthinkable that Grandmaster Yip Man
would choose to cheat all the students except one impudent kid, who actually
had little respect for him!

We feel sorry to have such an ignorant person in out clan, We want
to establish our position: we have NEVER AGREED with his Crazy
self-promotion, though we do understand his motive in casting himself as the
"Superman" in the William Cheung's Wing Chun System.

Yours faithfully,

The Board Of Directors and Attendance in the meeting of clarification
the distorted affairs.

Wong Shun Leung (Chairman)
Leung Ting (Vice Chairman)
Tong Chao Chi (Vice Chairman)
Lok Yiu (President)
Yip Ching (Vice President)
Ho Kam Ming (Vice President)
Siu Yuk Man (Secretary)
Chan Tak Chiu (Treasurer)
Tsui Sheung Tim (Membership Management)
Koo Sang (Membership Management)
Lee Wai Chi (Public Relation)
Victor Kan (attendance)
Yip Chun (attendance)


Here is verbatim as requested William Cheung's response to a letter from the
leading masters of Wing Chun. My version comes from Australasian fighting Arts
Vol 10 nr 3. I don't know if there are other versions.

********************************************************************


Firstly, I want to point out that the statement by the Ving Tsun Athletic
Association in their letter that the "the association was founded by the late
grandmaster Yip Man and most of his senior student since 1976" is not true,
because Yip Man died in 1971. So he couldn't have founded the Ving Tsun
Athletic Association in 1976 as claimed.

I shall attempt to answer their letter point by point:

(1) I am the leader of the Traditional Wing Chun because I am the only person
who inherited the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun.
Furthermore, I also
know the modified version thoroughly, and know that it is inferior to the
Traditional system. I therefore proclaim myself the Grandmaster of the
Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu. If anyone does not think so, he can come and
see me and I will be more than too pleased to show him.

(2) I was the only person that Grandmaster Yip Man chose to carry on the
whole Traditional Wing Chun system. I am the best fighter in the Wing Chun
Style.
This was acknowledged by the late Bruce Lee, and recognized by many
famous masters of other styles. I anyone needs proof, I would only be too
pleased to oblige.

(3) Nobody - I say nobody - was taught the traditional Wing Chun footwork but
me. I Leung Ting and company knew it, they would be showing their students. It
is like the case of the Bil Jee form. Nobody knew the proper form except me
and that is why they have been telling people that the Bil Jee form was too
dangerous even to show it; in order to cover up the fact that they don't know
it. I was the first WEing Chun master to put Bil Jee in a book so that
everyone can learn the correct version.

(4)Dim Mak or disabling Pressure Point Techniques was passed on to me, along
with the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun. If you have read my article on
the subject you might understand how it works. However, ther is no medicine for
ignorance; Leung Ting and company deny the existence because they don't know
it. At least this time they admit their ignorance. My book on Dim Mak, or
Disabling Pressure Point Techniques, will be on the market soon. Keep your
eyes open. In china there is a Kung Fu monk who could stand upside down on one
or two hands. Some people can break a half dozen inch boards with a punch.
Maybe there are people who can stand on a dozen eggs. I can stand on two
without breaking them. All these can be called tricks if you like, but the
fact is that I am still "the best Wing Chun Fighter". I dare anyone to prove
otherwise.


(5) It is irrelevant to argue whether Yip Man had made be take an oath before
he taught me the complete Traditional Wing Chun System, because no-one else
was privileged to witness it. The fact is, that after 36 years of training in
Wing Chun, I have the confidence to say that I am the most knowledgeable
master in the Wing Chun System and I am the best fighter, and I am willing to
prove it to them at any time, anywhere.
Unlike Leung Ting and company, as
shown in the photo, you only have to take one look at them to realize that
none of them look that part of martial artists. I could safely say that none
of them have done any hard training in recent years. They certainly don't look
very impressive!

In the 50's I was a kid . . . so was Bruce Lee . . . full of enthusiasm and
energy. We learned Wing Chun together and we were determined to make a name
for Wing Chun and ourselves. And we did. In the 50's Leung Ting was still "in
his diapers". He didn't learn Wing Chun until the 1960's from Leung Chun,(Yip
Man's student) of his own admission. He is one generation behind Bruce and me.
However, according to the article published in "Secrets of Kung Fu" Vol 2
1977, hundred of Kung Fu masters in Hong Kong - including Leung Chun, Yip
Shun, Tsui Sheng tin, and Wong Shun Leung - denounced Leung Ting in very
strong terms (I have enclosed copies) Leung Shun was reportedly saying that
Leung Ting wasn't learning from him, but from his student Jah Bak. This makes
Leung Ting two generation behind Bruce Lee and I.

And Leung Ting's claim that he was Yip Man's closed door student is on what
grounds? In the 60's, Yip Man was a heavy drug user, and did not enjoy very
good health. There was no way that Yip Man could have taught anyone in that
state of health. Even his own sons, Yip Chun and Yip Ching, who came to Hong
Kong in the 1960's, had to be content to train with Yip Man's senior students.
Wing Chun is a system which was developed for one to be able to master in
three to four years. Grandmaster Yip Man, from age of twelve to sixteen,
learned four years part time the modified version of Wing Chun with Chan Wah
Shun and, from age 17, he learned 2 years traditional Wing Chun from Leung Buk
(Leung Jung's son) in Hong Kong. Wong Shun Leung only learned modified Wing
Chun for three years part time and he began teaching in early 1955. Loh Liu
probably started teaching after only 2 years part time training in the
modified version.

I studied Wing Chun for 4 and one half years part time in the modified
version, and then 2 and one half years full time in the traditional version,
when I was living with Yip Man. I learned the modified version as well as the
traditional version. After I completed my learning, I have continued to
practice for a further 28 years, and I still practice daily.
From these factors you can see that I am the most qualified practitioner in
both modified and traditional versions of Wing Chun Kung Fu. I proclaim myself
the most knowledgeable master and the best fighter in the whole Wing Chun
style.

I would like to close off with a very famous Chinese proverb : "Practicing
Kung Fu is like paddling upstream - if you don't go forward, you must go
backward, and seldom you stay in the same spot". It is no surprise to find the
whole group in the printed photo appear to have gone so far backward that I
would be ashamed to be associated with them.

William Cheung
Grandmaster
Last edited by marvin8 on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Eric_H on Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:57 pm

Firstly, I want to point out that the statement by the Ving Tsun Athletic
Association in their letter that the "the association was founded by the late
grandmaster Yip Man and most of his senior student since 1976" is not true,
because Yip Man died in 1971. So he couldn't have founded the Ving Tsun
Athletic Association in 1976 as claimed.

I shall attempt to answer their letter point by point:

(1) I am the leader of the Traditional Wing Chun because I am the only person
who inherited the whole Traditional system of Wing Chun.
Furthermore, I also
know the modified version thoroughly, and know that it is inferior to the
Traditional system. I therefore proclaim myself the Grandmaster of the
Traditional Wing Chun Kung Fu. If anyone does not think so, he can come and
see me and I will be more than too pleased to show him.
...


Yeah, he went after LT pretty hard, no wonder they decided to pull some stuff. That said, it's pretty well known that LT did inflate his relationship to YM somewhat dramatically.

This makes me so glad to have left the Yip WC clan (and all of it's nonsense) in the rearview mirror.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby chimerical tortoise on Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:16 am

windwalker wrote:The history is interesting


There is good Ip Man VT/WC out there! And by that I mean good people most of all.

There was this guy I met once in the UK who iirc had done some WSL training among other stuff, he was one of the most positive smile-beaming chill energetic guys ever. Solid skills, nerded out for a bit, like what you do when you meet a fantastic human being who has trained similar stuff to you so you have stuff to talk about. Even told me a cool baguazhang story about a baguazhang master he met whose name I've since forgotten which was big at the time for me, because all I knew about baguazhang at that time was that it had something to do with funny walking in a circle.

Honestly the meeting a "fantastic human being" part is what I remember most strong looking back.


Then you see others who are fidgety and twitchy, claim ridiculous titles and invent secret traditional forms (of course only they have it if they invented it!), and it really makes you wonder... are we even on about the same thing here?

I mean come on, the art is supposed to be simple by principle so what on earth are there eighteen levels of underworld mythology or a veritable rainbow of sash ranks or whatever for? Then after all of that you still have to go out and find yourself an internal art because apparently you haven't been training one... and then proudly proclaim a revelation? I mean what is this, wuxia?
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby cdobe on Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:33 am

C.J.W. wrote:By his own admission, he'd also done various styles prior to WC and, growing up as a Turkish immigrant in Germany, was no stranger to violent street fights.

That is true, sometimes the victims put up a hell of a fight ;)

As some people here have already written, this organization has, for a variety of reasons, a very bad reputation in martial arts circles in Germany. Ironically, most of these criticisms have something to do with unethical practices, regarding treatment of students, business and marketing practices, falsification of WC's history and ridiculous self-aggrandisement. Therefore, it was amusing to me, seeing the guy featured in a book about the „noble way” of teaching martial arts.
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