The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:26 pm

Appledog wrote:This looks interesting to me;

http://sifusergio.com/iwka-wing-tjun-system/


He combined his WC with Huang style Taichi.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby chimerical tortoise on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:35 pm

ian c. kuzushi wrote:I'm going to completely disagree with the naysayers here. First, Sam Chin's art seems to clearly have some southern expression in it, even if the I Liq Chuan people like to present it as part of the family of northern neijia schools. The stance, shoulders, and frame are all very similar to many Hakka arts and other southern schools including phoenix fist and others. So, I don't see a problem with them working together (even if I see some similar vulnerabilities present in the frame of both styles).

Second, anyone asking why Keith Kernspecht might not want to work with just anyone in the "Wing Chun" community (is that a thing? No) clearly doesn't know about the history behind his master, Leung Tsing and his students. They come from a particularly fighty line (ie: Emin Boztepe) and the other lines generally either don't like them or are just scared.

My brother trained in that line and Keith sounded like a beast, as did his students who taught my brother (Emin, Klaus, etc).

There may be reason's to complain about what they are doing, I just think the comments above are way off base.


Just my 2c:

- Wing chun is not a Hakka art... not all southern schools are related. Although some of Ip Man's students had other backgrounds prior to learning most notably Wong Sheung Leung who was a southern Mantis fighter, and their wing chun has that flavour.

- Maybe people aren't too interested in Leung Ting and co., for a wide, wide variety of reasons, including marketing, franchising, etc. and how that does not always translate well into quality of teaching. "Particularly fighty" not really being something I realised they have a serious reputation for. "Just scared" is just laughable. This is the same Leung Ting WT(copyright) and all the little turf wars between and within we're talking about right?
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby chimerical tortoise on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:46 pm

jonathan.bluestein wrote:In response to the first two comments -

How many years have you guys been in the martial arts or practicing Wing Chun? Keith has been over 60 years in the martial arts and over 50 in Wing Chun. You think he perhaps lacks judgement, hmmm? That he could have made a better decision for himself and his organization?

The man has met, trained with and studied under a ridiculous amount of people. Just last week he went and visited another notable Pak Mei sifu and did hands with him and his students.
(not sure I can share the name here).


Well... considering he's revamping his complete syllabus after 50 years of teaching Wing Tsun... I wonder what that says about the training he could offer his students? Wouldn't they be better off learning from Sam direct?

I'm not sure what "over x years" or "studied under a ridiculous amount of people" has anything to do other than presenting apparently impressive credentials on paper.

jonathan.bluestein wrote:He has met most of Yip Man's long-term students and have trained or did hands with many of them, Chu Shong Tin included. In fact, he has many pictures with Chu Shong Tin from different periods. While he told me that he supported and thought fondly of Chu Shong Tin's efforts to make his Wing Chun more internal, this was not what he personally was looking for. Chu Shong Tin had the recreate the internal gongfu on his own, too.


Evidently he met Chu Shong Tin... and equally evidently he didn't glean anything from doing so. His videos speak volumes.

jonathan.bluestein wrote:In terms of pure body mechanics, I am biased to think that the type of Jook Lum Southern Mantis I do would have fit very well with Wing Chun (though I could not have been master Kernspecht's teacher, of course!). So does Xing Yi. However, one does not chose a martial art in this context and under these circumstances solely based on similarities as such. Oftentimes, choosing something very different to your own gongfu makes a bigger impact and leads to a greater improvement.


You are biased, what an unusually candid statement.

jonathan.bluestein wrote:Master Sam Chin is to master Kernspecht:

- A very serious practitioner who has a complete and well-rounded system, based on logic and with a very good and comprehensible curriculum.
- Someone with a system that does not focus on forms and with a curriculum not huge in size - important factors for an older practitioner.
- A kind, well-meaning individual with whom Keith has a sincere connection and shares many beliefs with.
- Someone with internal skills more developed than most other people master Kernspecht has thus far met, over his lifetime.
- A person with an already established big organization and logistical skills who is willing and happy to travel around and teach.

All of these factors were very important for master Kernspecht in making his decision to merge Zhong Xin Dao and its teachings into his global EWTO organization, and learn the system himself.


I never realised how big of a curriculum Mr. Kernspecht's WT could be. The parent art is not known for a vast curriculum.

jonathan.bluestein wrote:Part of his motivation was to be able to remain a leader in terms of showcasing his art and skills. Master Kernspecht is a hands-on person and likes to do hands with everyone. He is 72 years old and past his physical prime. He needed a system to help him deal with often very big, strong individuals with little effort, not relying on strength, speed or reflexes. In Zhong Xin Dao he found the solution. It works very well for him, as I have felt myself.


I recall a proverbial nun who was past her physical prime... who needed a system to help her deal with often very big, strong individuals with little effort, not relying on strength, speed or reflexes. Sound familiar? I'm sure Mr. Kernspecht must have heard of her before.

jonathan.bluestein wrote:Now as Ian has rightfully commented, Zhong Xin Dao also features some southern-Chinese roots along with the northern-Chinese ones. Master Chin is Hakka Chinese and one of their family arts used to be Southern Mantis, and they seem to have had other Hakka influences.


Come on Jonathan, not every Southern Chinese person is Hakka... not every southern art is Hakka... as a few people have pointed out this is a bit of an oversimplication.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby chimerical tortoise on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:47 pm

Appledog wrote:Exactly my point -- this is what I would expect to see from someone making this kind of effort. I didn't know either way, it's good to know he is on good terms with CST, and many others.


Was... sadly, CST passed a few years back.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby chimerical tortoise on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:48 pm

johnwang wrote:If your WC can do this, you don't need anything else.



+1... QFT
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby chimerical tortoise on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:48 pm

dspyrido wrote:What/where is the internal revelation?


Good question... I think we missed the train on this one! ;D
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby chimerical tortoise on Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:50 pm

Ian wrote:

Nobody else is going to mention this?

Can't we cut through the sales copy and just look at how the guy moves?


No, you have to read his curriculum vitae first!

(or gain 60 years experience and train with many, many people...)
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:02 pm

I couldn't find any reference to Huangs tai chi
He did mention Fukien white crane but not Huangs lineage
I did not read everything on the site so I may have missed something
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Yuen-Ming on Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:18 pm

chimerical tortoise wrote:I recall a proverbial nun who was past her physical prime... who needed a system to help her deal with often very big, strong individuals with little effort, not relying on strength, speed or reflexes. Sound familiar? I'm sure Mr. Kernspecht must have heard of her before.


ROTFL :)
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Ian on Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:55 pm

I tried to watch some Kernsprecht videos.

"Karate World Champion and the World's Best Wrestler learn Wing Tsun from Leung Ting & Kernspecht"
Image

I think I'll pass.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:10 pm

Is there any link
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:34 pm

wayne hansen wrote:I couldn't find any reference to Huangs tai chi
He did mention Fukien white crane but not Huangs lineage
I did not read everything on the site so I may have missed something


He (Sifu Sergio) hooked up with some Huang style Taichi folks from Malaysia and made some video clips interviewing them. Couple of years later, he all of a sudden started teaching and advertising his own brand of "internal" WC.

Based on the seminar footage he's posted, all the internal stuff he claims to be of "1700s' old-school WC" origin is basically just body mechanics and PH techniques/drills borrowed from Huang style that have been adapted to look like WC or chi-sao on the outside.



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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby willie on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:58 pm

C.J.W. wrote:
wayne hansen wrote:I couldn't find any reference to Huangs tai chi
He did mention Fukien white crane but not Huangs lineage
I did not read everything on the site so I may have missed something


He (Sifu Sergio) hooked up with some Huang style Taichi folks from Malaysia and made some video clips interviewing them. Couple of years later, he all of a sudden started teaching and advertising his own brand of "internal" WC.

Based on the seminar footage he's posted, all the internal stuff he claims to be of "1700s' old-school WC" origin is basically just body mechanics and PH techniques/drills borrowed from Huang style that have been adapted to look like WC or chi-sao on the outside.




Now that you have mentioned Malaysia. I think his energy looks a bit like Adam Mizner.
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby wayne hansen on Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:01 pm

I wish everyone I was going to push stood in wing Chun stance
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:07 am

chimerical tortoise wrote:
ian c. kuzushi wrote:I'm going to completely disagree with the naysayers here. First, Sam Chin's art seems to clearly have some southern expression in it, even if the I Liq Chuan people like to present it as part of the family of northern neijia schools. The stance, shoulders, and frame are all very similar to many Hakka arts and other southern schools including phoenix fist and others. So, I don't see a problem with them working together (even if I see some similar vulnerabilities present in the frame of both styles).

Second, anyone asking why Keith Kernspecht might not want to work with just anyone in the "Wing Chun" community (is that a thing? No) clearly doesn't know about the history behind his master, Leung Tsing and his students. They come from a particularly fighty line (ie: Emin Boztepe) and the other lines generally either don't like them or are just scared.

My brother trained in that line and Keith sounded like a beast, as did his students who taught my brother (Emin, Klaus, etc).

There may be reason's to complain about what they are doing, I just think the comments above are way off base.


Just my 2c:

- Wing chun is not a Hakka art... not all southern schools are related. Although some of Ip Man's students had other backgrounds prior to learning most notably Wong Sheung Leung who was a southern Mantis fighter, and their wing chun has that flavour.

- Maybe people aren't too interested in Leung Ting and co., for a wide, wide variety of reasons, including marketing, franchising, etc. and how that does not always translate well into quality of teaching. "Particularly fighty" not really being something I realised they have a serious reputation for. "Just scared" is just laughable. This is the same Leung Ting WT(copyright) and all the little turf wars between and within we're talking about right?


Hmm, maybe you should read a bit more carefully? I said:

Sam Chin's art seems to clearly have some southern expression in it, even if the I Liq Chuan people like to present it as part of the family of northern neijia schools. The stance, shoulders, and frame are all very similar to many Hakka arts and other southern schools including phoenix fist and others.


As for your comments on VT not being fighty: you wouldn't happen to have a connection to William Cheung, would you? I know his ass beating at Emin's hands was embarrasing, but there are other ways to deal with it. I've presonally never been particually impressed with wing chun of any variety, but the Ving Tsun people I met were at least more than willing to mix it up.

Why so scare? :-*
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