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Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:02 am
by northern_mantis
RobP3 wrote:I heard from a couple of his guys that he was adding a lot of Systema into his work, FWIW.


I don’t know why people are so secretive about their influences. I unashamedly take influence from systema and other stuff. In fact I thought systema was so good I almost thought about starting from scratch with it. But then I figured why throw the baby out with the bath water, martial arts at a high level is all one thing, no need to put a label on it.

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:19 pm
by Eric_H
I've met master Chin a few times and had his student Ashe as my main sparring partner for a while. I think ILC is a great combination internal art, and I'm sure Kernspecht's students will benefit from it.

I disagree that it's going to "help their WC" though. It's just going to add something else into it as they've been doing with systema and other arts for some time. If they feel their their WC is incomplete, then that's going to be an interesting new perspective for them.

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:21 pm
by johnwang
If your WC can do this, you don't need anything else.


Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:50 pm
by jonathan.bluestein
I have seen two people here already comment that there are Systema influences upon material taught in the EWTO. I have asked master Kenrspecht of this and his answer was explicit:

"There are absolutely no SYSTEMA INFLUENCES in our WingTsun!".

I am not sure who spreads these rumours, but they are untrue. Neither does master Kernspecht have any reason to hide such influences if they ever existed. He actively and openly incorporated Escrima, MMA and now ZXD into the EWTO as separate classes and many of his student and grand-students learned these arts. He himself holds high ranks in Escrima and Jon Bluming's Karate and has practiced them for many years. In his books he details over a dozen styles he practiced during his lifetime and specifies each of their respective teachers and the periods during which he studied with them. Had there been any Systema influences, he would have said so.

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:25 pm
by dspyrido
"The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation"?

Having multi-dimensionality and circularity in every part of the art. Every movement has a forward and back, a left and right, an up and down, an expanding and contracting.

• Emphasizing balance, and therefore also relaxation (A Confucian idea – the balanced person can also become relaxed).

• Having a clear separation of Yin & Yang - very simple energy management that acts upon a powerful movement motor and takes its effect with the help of a clear structure.

• Natural opening & closing of the joints; utilizing the power of the joints & fascia through horizontal rotation and the a lot of shifting of one’s bodyweight from one side to the other.

• The use of indirect rather than direct forces. Multi-vectored attacks.

• Specific use of convex & concave body mechanics.

• Sticking to the physical contact point, including the use of suction. Compelling the opponent to remain in contact by creating and offering a sphere with corresponding pressure.

• No resistance, but not the opposite either – giving way or running away from the point!

• No automatic, blind reactions. Rather, acting in the Zen-Buddhist sense described by his friend Prof. Tiwald; of being mindful and fully conscious in action for as much as one's own skill level allows.


Out of these points I can safely say 7 out of the 9 points where taught in wc. The others that might be questioned ... well it's potentially down to semantics.

What/where is the internal revelation?

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:43 pm
by HotSoup
jonathan.bluestein wrote:I have seen two people here already comment that there are Systema influences upon material taught in the EWTO. I have asked master Kenrspecht of this and his answer was explicit:

"There are absolutely no SYSTEMA INFLUENCES in our WingTsun!".

I am not sure who spreads these rumours, but they are untrue. Neither does master Kernspecht have any reason to hide such influences if they ever existed. He actively and openly incorporated Escrima, MMA and now ZXD into the EWTO as separate classes and many of his student and grand-students learned these arts. He himself holds high ranks in Escrima and Jon Bluming's Karate and has practiced them for many years. In his books he details over a dozen styles he practiced during his lifetime and specifies each of their respective teachers and the periods during which he studied with them. Had there been any Systema influences, he would have said so.


Black marketing? When people related to the Russian special forces hear the claims that Systema was what they were taught for the hand-to-hand combat, they have reactions akin to yours ;)

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:56 pm
by Eric_H
jonathan.bluestein wrote:I have seen two people here already comment that there are Systema influences upon material taught in the EWTO. I have asked master Kenrspecht of this and his answer was explicit:

"There are absolutely no SYSTEMA INFLUENCES in our WingTsun!".

I am not sure who spreads these rumours, but they are untrue. Neither does master Kernspecht have any reason to hide such influences if they ever existed. He actively and openly incorporated Escrima, MMA and now ZXD into the EWTO as separate classes and many of his student and grand-students learned these arts. He himself holds high ranks in Escrima and Jon Bluming's Karate and has practiced them for many years. In his books he details over a dozen styles he practiced during his lifetime and specifies each of their respective teachers and the periods during which he studied with them. Had there been any Systema influences, he would have said so.


I think a lot of it comes from whatever they're doing here:

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:04 pm
by RobP3
jonathan.bluestein wrote:I have seen two people here already comment that there are Systema influences upon material taught in the EWTO. I have asked master Kenrspecht of this and his answer was explicit:

"There are absolutely no SYSTEMA INFLUENCES in our WingTsun!".

I am not sure who spreads these rumours, but they are untrue. Neither does master Kernspecht have any reason to hide such influences if they ever existed. He actively and openly incorporated Escrima, MMA and now ZXD into the EWTO as separate classes and many of his student and grand-students learned these arts. He himself holds high ranks in Escrima and Jon Bluming's Karate and has practiced them for many years. In his books he details over a dozen styles he practiced during his lifetime and specifies each of their respective teachers and the periods during which he studied with them. Had there been any Systema influences, he would have said so.


I'm only saying what those two separate guys told me, like I said, I have no other further info nor any particular interest tbh

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:06 pm
by RobP3
HotSoup wrote:
jonathan.bluestein wrote:I have seen two people here already comment that there are Systema influences upon material taught in the EWTO. I have asked master Kenrspecht of this and his answer was explicit:

"There are absolutely no SYSTEMA INFLUENCES in our WingTsun!".

I am not sure who spreads these rumours, but they are untrue. Neither does master Kernspecht have any reason to hide such influences if they ever existed. He actively and openly incorporated Escrima, MMA and now ZXD into the EWTO as separate classes and many of his student and grand-students learned these arts. He himself holds high ranks in Escrima and Jon Bluming's Karate and has practiced them for many years. In his books he details over a dozen styles he practiced during his lifetime and specifies each of their respective teachers and the periods during which he studied with them. Had there been any Systema influences, he would have said so.


Black marketing? When people related to the Russian special forces hear the claims that Systema was what they were taught for the hand-to-hand combat, they have reactions akin to yours ;)


Different strokes. The guys I was chatting to last weekend have a different outlook, as well as a few other "interesting" people I've met in my travels. I don't think VV needs KK for marketing, he seems to be doing ok as it is :)

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:48 pm
by C.J.W.
Speaking of marketing, smart move on Sam's part teaming up with Kernspecht. With the number of students K has all over Europe, the potential financial gain from future seminar circuits alone is most likely going to be ginormous. K also gets to learn and add a few internal tricks up his sleeves.

A true win-win situation for both, I'd say. ;)

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:23 pm
by Ian
Eric_H wrote:I think a lot of it comes from whatever they're doing here:


Nobody else is going to mention this?

Can't we cut through the sales copy and just look at how the guy moves?

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:01 pm
by wayne hansen
So is this the guy they are all saying is so good

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:08 am
by Appledog
Hello, I'd like to maintain a 'cool post count' of 108 posts. This particular post has gone beyond that number and has therefore expired.

I'm sorry if you were looking for some old information but I'll do my best to answer you if you send me a DM with a question in it.

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:26 pm
by C.J.W.
Appledog wrote:This looks interesting to me;

http://sifusergio.com/iwka-wing-tjun-system/


He combined his WC with Huang style Taichi.

Re: The big 'internal Wing Chun' revelation

PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:35 pm
by chimerical tortoise
ian c. kuzushi wrote:I'm going to completely disagree with the naysayers here. First, Sam Chin's art seems to clearly have some southern expression in it, even if the I Liq Chuan people like to present it as part of the family of northern neijia schools. The stance, shoulders, and frame are all very similar to many Hakka arts and other southern schools including phoenix fist and others. So, I don't see a problem with them working together (even if I see some similar vulnerabilities present in the frame of both styles).

Second, anyone asking why Keith Kernspecht might not want to work with just anyone in the "Wing Chun" community (is that a thing? No) clearly doesn't know about the history behind his master, Leung Tsing and his students. They come from a particularly fighty line (ie: Emin Boztepe) and the other lines generally either don't like them or are just scared.

My brother trained in that line and Keith sounded like a beast, as did his students who taught my brother (Emin, Klaus, etc).

There may be reason's to complain about what they are doing, I just think the comments above are way off base.


Just my 2c:

- Wing chun is not a Hakka art... not all southern schools are related. Although some of Ip Man's students had other backgrounds prior to learning most notably Wong Sheung Leung who was a southern Mantis fighter, and their wing chun has that flavour.

- Maybe people aren't too interested in Leung Ting and co., for a wide, wide variety of reasons, including marketing, franchising, etc. and how that does not always translate well into quality of teaching. "Particularly fighty" not really being something I realised they have a serious reputation for. "Just scared" is just laughable. This is the same Leung Ting WT(copyright) and all the little turf wars between and within we're talking about right?