Manifesting the counter-force

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Manifesting the counter-force

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:20 am

Lately I have been struck by the sense that, while the body is certainly capable of producing forces, the larger part of the bodies power is not in producing active forces, but rather in producing counter-forces.
Which is to say that, while the body has the power to move, in a larger sense it has the power to NOT move. In relation to an opponent it means that, while one can make movements which effect the opponent directly, the larger
portion of ones ability lies in being able to keep your opponent from effecting yourself, and so effecting your opponent indirectly. Meaning, the less he can move me, the more I can move him. Our muscular force is not the basis of what makes us hard to effect. The counter-force comes out of an innate passivity, a tendency towards stillness which is inseparable from having mass. It seems to me that all muscular/active forces must be increasingly geared around the maintenance of this passive resting state. Do I think this means you should not move your feet, or not move your own body? No, that is largely the practice, to be able to move your own body in every way, without taking your mass out of a resting, sunken, settling state. It seems to me that manifesting the innate counter-force draws many connections through out martial arts, particularly the so called internal styles.
rojcewiczj
Anjing
 
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:09 am

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby origami_itto on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:23 am

Sometimes I like to visualize my body being made of independent flying pieces and for each posture instead of me moving my meat, they each fly to their place in the new posture and settle from the ground up. The structure just appears between the ground and where I want strength and my physical body is just the energy flowing through the structure
Last edited by origami_itto on Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5036
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby origami_itto on Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:17 am

rojcewiczj wrote:Lately I have been struck by the sense that, while the body is certainly capable of producing forces, the larger part of the bodies power is not in producing active forces, but rather in producing counter-forces.
Which is to say that, while the body has the power to move, in a larger sense it has the power to NOT move. In relation to an opponent it means that, while one can make movements which effect the opponent directly, the larger
portion of ones ability lies in being able to keep your opponent from effecting yourself, and so effecting your opponent indirectly. Meaning, the less he can move me, the more I can move him. Our muscular force is not the basis of what makes us hard to effect. The counter-force comes out of an innate passivity, a tendency towards stillness which is inseparable from having mass. It seems to me that all muscular/active forces must be increasingly geared around the maintenance of this passive resting state. Do I think this means you should not move your feet, or not move your own body? No, that is largely the practice, to be able to move your own body in every way, without taking your mass out of a resting, sunken, settling state. It seems to me that manifesting the innate counter-force draws many connections through out martial arts, particularly the so called internal styles.


I've been parsing this to try to figure out what you're saying and man I'm lost.

I think you're talking about inertia. In order to move something you apply an amount of energy to it along a vector that is greater than the combined inertia of the object and friction acting in opposition to your vector.

In that regard the fastest movement is stillness, in that it's fastest to start at the finish line than a mile back.

Movement then exists on a spectrum where effective speed is inversely proportionate to the distance it needs to travel to be fully realized, and bound by the amount of energy that can be put into the movement.

This is all pretty obvious stuff.

So then as a fight strategy if you can just leave your weapon out there for them to impale themselves on braveheart style, good on ya unless they happen to notice and decide to not do that.

Better to hide the weapon, induce then to attack a Target that leaves them open without exposing your own weakness, that requires small movements to catch and destroy

And I definitely agree that, at least in Taijiquan, we don't want to disturb our mass. We don't throw it around horizontally like a rock like other arts, we rotate and sink and lift
Last edited by origami_itto on Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5036
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby charles on Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:37 am

oragami_itto wrote:I think you're talking about inertia. In order to move something you apply an amount of energy to it along a vector that is greater than the combined inertia of the object and friction acting in opposition to your vector.


It's not my intention to nit-pick, but these words have meanings.

To move something, according to Newton and his laws, you need to apply an external force. Energy is not force. Force is a vector quantity: energy is not.

Movement then exists on a spectrum where effective speed is inversely proportionate to the distance it needs to travel to be fully realized, and bound by the amount of energy that can be put into the movement.


Speed is how quickly distance changes: the rate of change of distance. Acceleration is the rate of change of speed (velocity, actually): how quickly velocity changes. If you want an object to speed-up quickly, you need a large acceleration. Newton says, for a given mass, you need a bigger force to create a bigger acceleration. Energy doesn't enter into it.

This is all pretty obvious stuff.


Perhaps not.

And I definitely agree that, at least in Taijiquan, we don't want to disturb our mass. We don't throw it around horizontally like a rock like other arts, we rotate and sink and lift


Again, without acceleration, a mass is just a mass, not a force. How does the mass of the human body create a force if the body (and its mass) does not move? Rotation, sinking and lifting involve moving one's mass. If they don't, no force is developed. (A different discussion is impulse and momentum, but those are well beyond this discussion.)

The question, then, is how does one use the human body to prevent an externally applied force from either toppling/destabilizing the body or from doing the body harm (i.e. neutralizing the applied force)? Can it be done without developing an equal and opposite force and, if so, how is that done? I suggest to you, therein lies the art, or, at least one side of the coin.
charles
Wuji
 
Posts: 1727
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 1:01 pm

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:43 pm

rojcewiczj wrote: while the body has the power to move, in a larger sense it has the power to NOT move.

When your opponent moves around you in circle, if you don't move, he will moves behind of you.



rojcewiczj wrote: in producing counter-forces.

It's difficult to have any deep level discussion without a concrete example. What kind of "counter force" do you produce in this situation?



Your opponent can reverse his force direction anytime he wants to.

Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:00 pm

If my mass it at rest, then it will take a force greater than its 180lbs to get me moving. The question is how capable am I of moving without losing this 180lb pounds of not-moving counter-force. It is omni-directonal when the body remains adjustable.
rojcewiczj
Anjing
 
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:09 am

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:13 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:If my mass it at rest, then it will take a force greater than its 180lbs to get me moving. The question is how capable am I of moving without losing this 180lb pounds of not-moving counter-force. It is omni-directonal when the body remains adjustable.

If it will take someone 180 lbs to move you, that means you can give that person 180 lb force to borrow. Whether that person can move you forward, or your 180 lb force will pull him toward you, the end result is the same.

When you pull an elephant, you may not pull that elephant over, but the counter force will pull you toward that elephant.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby rojcewiczj on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:21 pm

If my opponent is effected by me but I remain unaffected by my opponent, that is control and it is enough.
rojcewiczj
Anjing
 
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2015 10:09 am

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby Ron Panunto on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:28 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:Lately I have been struck by the sense that, while the body is certainly capable of producing forces, the larger part of the bodies power is not in producing active forces, but rather in producing counter-forces.
Which is to say that, while the body has the power to move, in a larger sense it has the power to NOT move. In relation to an opponent it means that, while one can make movements which effect the opponent directly, the larger
portion of ones ability lies in being able to keep your opponent from effecting yourself, and so effecting your opponent indirectly. Meaning, the less he can move me, the more I can move him. Our muscular force is not the basis of what makes us hard to effect. The counter-force comes out of an innate passivity, a tendency towards stillness which is inseparable from having mass. It seems to me that all muscular/active forces must be increasingly geared around the maintenance of this passive resting state. Do I think this means you should not move your feet, or not move your own body? No, that is largely the practice, to be able to move your own body in every way, without taking your mass out of a resting, sunken, settling state. It seems to me that manifesting the innate counter-force draws many connections through out martial arts, particularly the so called internal styles.


That's what fixed step Taiji push hands is for. It's much easier to neutralize force when you can step out of its way, but when you can't then you have to use body manipulation to neutralize (mainly turning the waist).
Ron Panunto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1310
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 6:33 am
Location: Langhorne, PA, USA

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:29 pm

What most call counter force

might be better understood as "restoring force"

“Restoring force, in a physics context, is a force that gives rise to an equilibrium in a physical system. If the system is perturbed away from the equilibrium, the restoring force will tend to bring the system back toward equilibrium."

by arriving at a point where the force is equals zero any force added is very small to cause changes in it. In all cases the system is trying to re establish its equilibrium
Image

Stand like a balanced scale and rotate actively like a wheel. ”

Lots of demos showing this at work, most of them disbelieved or not understood.
Last edited by windwalker on Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10549
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:43 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:If my opponent is effected by me but I remain unaffected by my opponent, that is control and it is enough.

Whether your opponent can pull you into his punch, or your counter force can pull his punch into you, it won't make any difference for him.

Last edited by johnwang on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10241
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby windwalker on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:54 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:Lately I have been struck by the sense that, while the body is certainly capable of producing forces, the larger part of the bodies power is not in producing active forces, but rather in producing counter-forces.
Which is to say that, while the body has the power to move, in a larger sense it has the power to NOT move. .


It might be better to look at what central equilibrium means
why and how the body maintains this, how this is affected when one body is joined with another.
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 10549
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby robert on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:07 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:If my mass it at rest, then it will take a force greater than its 180lbs to get me moving.

Yeah, but what can you do lying down? If you're standing up and you're not moving I just need to move your COG so you lose balance and that isn't anywhere near 180 lbs. As you fall over you'll be moving ...
The method of practicing this boxing art is nothing more than opening and closing, passive and active. The subtlety of the art is based entirely upon their alternations. Chen Xin
robert
Wuji
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:32 am

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby origami_itto on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:19 pm

charles wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I think you're talking about inertia. In order to move something you apply an amount of energy to it along a vector that is greater than the combined inertia of the object and friction acting in opposition to your vector.


It's not my intention to nit-pick, but these words have meanings.

To move something, according to Newton and his laws, you need to apply an external force. Energy is not force. Force is a vector quantity: energy is not.


I can accept force instead of energy, no bigs.

charles wrote:
Movement then exists on a spectrum where effective speed is inversely proportionate to the distance it needs to travel to be fully realized, and bound by the amount of energy that can be put into the movement.


Speed is how quickly distance changes: the rate of change of distance. Acceleration is the rate of change of speed (velocity, actually): how quickly velocity changes. If you want an object to speed-up quickly, you need a large acceleration. Newton says, for a given mass, you need a bigger force to create a bigger acceleration. Energy doesn't enter into it.


By "effective speed" in this context I mean "minimum duration to be effective", I guess. Maybe not the best term for it, don't know what is yet.

For example, my fist is straight out, you run right into it. My effective speed is 0.

My fist is three inches below where it needs to be to connect with your chin. My effective speed is however long it takes for me to move my fist that three inches.
So that "effective speed" is a function of that distance, the inertia of your mass, the friction and any other force vectors acting in opposition to the force that you are using to propel the motion and the nature of the force you're using to propel it.
Q.E.D. The shorter the distance your weapon has to travel to be in position to damage your opponent, the "faster" the movement is, regardless of the actual speed in terms of specific distance over specific time of any particular part of the body.

charles wrote:
This is all pretty obvious stuff.


Perhaps not.


Other than my use of energy instead of force, do you take issue with any of that?
charles wrote:
And I definitely agree that, at least in Taijiquan, we don't want to disturb our mass. We don't throw it around horizontally like a rock like other arts, we rotate and sink and lift


Again, without acceleration, a mass is just a mass, not a force. How does the mass of the human body create a force if the body (and its mass) does not move? Rotation, sinking and lifting involve moving one's mass. If they don't, no force is developed. (A different discussion is impulse and momentum, but those are well beyond this discussion.)


As I mentioned before, if I stand with my fist straight out, and you run into it, there is an obvious force being expressed. There is the bare inertia of the mass, and whatever structural support may helping to oppose the incoming vector. That provides a platform for the opponent's incoming force to meet an equal and opposite force.

The _FASTEST_ movement is stillness. Rotation, lifting, and sinking are movement, yes. They aren't throwing the weight like a dead mass.

charles wrote:
The question, then, is how does one use the human body to prevent an externally applied force from either toppling/destabilizing the body or from doing the body harm (i.e. neutralizing the applied force)? Can it be done without developing an equal and opposite force and, if so, how is that done? I suggest to you, therein lies the art, or, at least one side of the coin.


Follow. Join. Stick. Adhere.
Last edited by origami_itto on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5036
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Re: Manifesting the counter-force

Postby origami_itto on Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:25 pm

rojcewiczj wrote:If my mass it at rest, then it will take a force greater than its 180lbs to get me moving. The question is how capable am I of moving without losing this 180lb pounds of not-moving counter-force. It is omni-directonal when the body remains adjustable.


It could take far less than 180lbs to get you moving, if the force is intelligently applied.
The form is the notes, the quan is the music
Atomic Taijiquan|FB|YT|IG|X|
User avatar
origami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 5036
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Palm Bay, FL

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests