Internal and Clinch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Internal and Clinch

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:45 pm

Internal discussion always assumes that "clinch" will never happen. Is that a realistic assumption?

Your thought?

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Last edited by johnwang on Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby liokault on Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:33 pm

Why wouldn’t the clinch happen?

The clinch is where TCC lives and breathes. 90% of my training is about either getting into a clinch or winning from the clinch. The other 10% is about what happens before or after.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:41 pm

IF somebody gets two hands around your waist like that, one of you is about to have a really bad time.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby Bhassler on Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:45 pm

oragami_itto wrote:IF somebody gets two hands around your waist like that, one of you is about to have a really bad time.


I know that's how my girlfriend feels about it....
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:53 pm

well you'd better get better or your girlfriend will be looking to find another clinch. ;D
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby Wanderingdragon on Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:55 pm

John Wang :-X ??? always wondering why he cant make his internal work :-\ ;D
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:12 pm

Wanderingdragon wrote:John Wang :-X ??? always wondering why he cant make his internal work :-\ ;D

What do you mean to "make internal work"? Are you saying that by using internal, you can prevent clinch from happening all the time?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby Subitai on Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:26 pm

Mabe JohnWang is just assuming since most of the discussions don't speak about clinch, i.e. energy this or Structure that... Mabe that's why JW would be assuming
...that "clinch" will never happen


In most push hands discussions that's probably true but when people throw out the limiting rules...I think we can all agree that the Clinch of some sort will likely happen eventually. For example, when you see challenge matches or general people that are NOT concerned with rules...it happens far more often. Plenty times I've been rolling with someone and they say, "you're only doing that cause you know I can't hit you....otherwise I'd be striking your ass".

Now the question is NOT if or How the clinch will happen but more importantly why? And by why does it happen more often in Taiji Grappling or some sort of grappling game, is specifically because you are not expecting to be struck. There is usually a goal to position the hips or body and or to get a submission or score points. I.e. not NHB usually.

* That is to say of course clinch happens in all realms but it happens more comfortably and people take risks that they normally wouldn't to get a clinch on when they know they can't be struck. That's a fact.

Lastly any grappler should know at least three counters to being grabbed that way. Also, what is strong or weak about that position.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby johnwang on Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:29 pm

Subitai wrote:Lastly any grappler should know at least three counters to being grabbed that way. Also, what is strong or weak about that position.

How to use "internal" to deal with clinch can be an interested discussion.

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Last edited by johnwang on Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby dspyrido on Thu Nov 16, 2017 7:40 pm

I'm with JW. Rooting is one of the great showpieces of being "internal".







And there are many many other videos showing the same thing.

Yet who in the world of grappling bothers pushing a hip or shoulder from a parallel standing position? No wrestler in his right mind would.

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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby jaime_g on Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:10 am

I have found that internals work really well in the clinch, I try to get a clinch all the time. If you have heavy elbows it's going to be hell for them to escape your clinch. If you end in a clinch, your neck should be really hard to pull down, giving you tons of chances to escape or dominate the clinch. If he wants to transition from a thai like clinch to a wrestling one, even better for me.

Running away from getting a dominant and stable position seems very weird for me.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby Bao on Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:09 am

I have no idea why anyone would question "internal" arts and dealing with a clinch.
Almost everything about free push hands practice is anti-grappling and clinch defence practice. If an experienced Tai Chi/Bagua/Xingy practitioner can't deal with a clinch, I have no idea what that person has spent his or her time with. :-\ Maybe forms? ;D
Last edited by Bao on Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby HotSoup on Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:43 am

johnwang wrote:Internal discussion always assumes that "clinch" will never happen. Is that a realistic assumption?

Your thought?


Can't speak for other styles, but in Chen Taiji, in most of the cases, a lot is about "clinch". The close distance and clinch are the two distances at which 90% of action is actually happening. All qinna techniques are based on this concept; majority of striking techniques are designed to be used from the short distance, too.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby windwalker on Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:24 am

johnwang wrote:Internal discussion always assumes that "clinch" will never happen. Is that a realistic assumption?

Your thought?


depends on ones own personnel fighting style
but one should be aware of it, and what to do, and not do about it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLcYqQPdIrs
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby johnwang on Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:30 pm

It seems to me that we all agree that "clinch" can happen. Now the questions are:

1. How to avoid a clinch?
2. How to deal with a clinch?

Of course if you can run faster than your opponent can, the clinch can never happen. But the moment you step in and punch at your opponent, the clinch can happen.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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