Internal and Clinch

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby marvin8 on Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:20 am

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:I believe the hip throw is hiding in every corner of the TJQ forms, maybe I'm just imagine or they are not easily seen.

I have not seen "hip throw" exist in any Taiji system.


Found it in this "Taiji system."

Wudang Martial Arts
Published on Apr 29, 2011

a study of "enticing the oponent in to the void:”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC_dLletpeQ


Oxford Wudang
Published on Nov 11, 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cR7jsuN2IY


@ 6:03, White Crane Flaps It’s Wings.

Wudang Martial Arts
Published on May 20, 2011

Tai Chi chuan: single sieze legs, double sieze legs, raise hands step up, white crane flaps its wings, break arm style:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xfNAUfME2c
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby Trick on Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:50 am

Ok, I've not recheck the posts in this tread but I believe the old film clip of "Taiji master vs Wrestler(clich master?) has not been brought up. The "bout" looks quite lame, tame and fake but I think it is supposed to show the "real deal". I guess most of you guys know which film clip I'm talking about, so does the Taiji master display good internal taijiquan techniques against the "wrestler" ?
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby Trick on Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:57 am

GrandUltimate wrote:
johnwang wrote:It seems to me that we all agree that "clinch" can happen. Now the questions are:

1. How to avoid a clinch?
2. How to deal with a clinch?

Of course if you can run faster than your opponent can, the clinch can never happen. But the moment you step in and punch at your opponent, the clinch can happen.


If we're talking about a bear hug type of clinch as shown in the OP, then eyebrow mopping like in SC would be one possible way to deal with the bear hug clinch. Would you consider eyebrow mopping as being a skill within arts like Tai Chi, Bagua, etc?

If were talking a more muay thai type of clinch (hands controlling the back of the head, elbows locked against the body, etc), there's always things like using a gable grip to reach around with both hands and squeeze the back of the head/neck area while using the forehead to mop against the other guy's head and break the person's structure. I cross trained with a Xing Yi guy (mainly Shanxi Che but with some xingyi dao and dai xin yi stuff mixed in) who put so much emphasis on using the head to strike or add pressure while moving. I wonder if they'd use a similar application.

I'm sure that at least wrestlers are aware of head buts(strikes), look at a wrestlers ears.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby Trick on Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:06 am

Ok, found the "Taiji master vs Wrestler(clinch attempter" clip http://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XNDEwNDA ... 25AD%25A3_ The wrestler seem to fail fall very easily and lose the bout with nill to 26 for the Taiji master, is it due to the Taiji masters internal power empowered Taiji derfence or is he just technically and physically more well trained that the Taiji master won the bout.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby robert on Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:28 am

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:I believe the hip throw is hiding in every corner of the TJQ forms, maybe I'm just imagine or they are not easily seen.

I have not seen "hip throw" exist in any Taiji system.


It's pretty obvious in Chen 38: 3:43 - 3:49

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR_dmFNGduc

The posture is shan tong bei. The same move is in laojia yilu, but it's executed differently and hides the hip throw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMapYPqbI0M
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:56 am

johnwang wrote:
Trick wrote:I believe the hip throw is hiding in every corner of the TJQ forms, maybe I'm just imagine or they are not easily seen.

I have not seen "hip throw" exist in any Taiji system.



The first one you encounter in the Yang form is in the "rollback" posture. Right hip to right hip, behind, right arm across torso in front. Twist torso to the left. Most applications shown are usually a form of pluck, though.

The first complete throw they show here is the variation I'm talking about.

Last edited by oragami_itto on Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:06 pm

John, I am guessing the Taiji styles you are basing your assumptions on is mainly Yang style and its derivatives. Wu style, however, has many throwing applications due to the founder's background in Shuaijiao. The white crane spreads its wing movement in Wu style, for instance, is basically a classic hip throw.

Last edited by C.J.W. on Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby cloudz on Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:28 am

robert wrote:

It's pretty obvious in Chen 38: 3:43 - 3:49

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR_dmFNGduc

The posture is shan tong bei. The same move is in laojia yilu, but it's executed differently and hides the hip throw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMapYPqbI0M


I think that can be modified for a hip throw and i've certainly seen Chen guys use hip throw in their taiji grappling eg. CZQ

But, IMHO, that's more of a shoulder "throw".. or at least would be.. A shoulder throw "proper" would be executed from the inside. In that app. he goes outside which might work better with some modifying, but he's not really showing that very well at all, and they are far easier to get away from - as evidenced in that clip. I actually think in most taiji systems the first point of attack in this move(I have seen it elsewhere as part of shoulder throws) is actually the joint attack on the elbow from that position. What's shown in that application clip would be better shown as a joint attack - IMO.. As it is(shown in that clip), it's a kind of psuedo technique that is neither here nor there/ one or other. For either the joint attack or throw he needs to bring his other hand/ arm into play.

I personally learnt the hip throw, from TC, in Wu style, don't see it much from Yang people but the White Crane posture is where it's at for me, a bit of folding at the waist as per 'needle at sea bottom' is all that's really needed. It's sometimes easy to miss in some Wu performances but it's there and you do see it in some old yang too.
Last edited by cloudz on Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:40 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby cloudz on Wed Nov 22, 2017 4:40 am

C.J.W. wrote:John, I am guessing the Taiji styles you are basing your assumptions on is mainly Yang style and its derivatives. Wu style, however, has many throwing applications due to the founder's background in Shuaijiao. The white crane spreads its wing movement in Wu style, for instance, is basically a classic hip throw.




There's a Greek saying that goes something like "My tongue has sprouted hairs".
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby robert on Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:43 am

cloudz wrote:
I think that can be modified for a hip throw and i've certainly seen Chen guys use hip throw in their taiji grappling eg. CZQ

But, IMHO, that's more of a shoulder "throw".. or at least would be.. A shoulder throw "proper" would be executed from the inside. In that app. he goes outside which might work better with some modifying, but he's not really showing that very well at all,

I agree.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:39 pm

robert wrote:A shoulder throw "proper" would be executed from the inside. In that app. he goes outside which might work better with some modifying, but he's not really showing that very well at all,

That's "outer shoulder throw".

I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby dspyrido on Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:03 pm

Subitai wrote:For your question # (1) The video is down? haha, ok well in the very beginning Willie had pretty much solo demonstrated the correct form for a around the torso clinch to cinch or as Cary calls it a bear hug. Technically a standing clinch doesn't need to have hands locked persay...for example the picture you put up above with Chen Xiaowang vs a big Wrestler is a clinch, abeit a loose one. Especially if the wrestler just grabs CXW with an over / under, (I.e. Left overhook & Right underhook) it's right there for him to grab easily.


True a bearhug is one example of clinch range fighting. I emphasise it because most wrestlers don't see any advantage of placing the palms on the head, waist, hips, elbow etc. Maybe when combined with a hooking or a grip things start but even then it's about control & setup.

But the bearhug is different. It's an attacking move with the real power being "breaking the back" (interestingly reversing the back bow). Then it's an easy matter to uproot.

Image

It's a move that seems to have been glossed over in many TC demonstrations & push hands competitions but is picked up by shuaijiow & some branches of chinna.

What is interesting is what happens in the video you posted.

Subitai wrote:The guy in Black trys to bear hug:
1) He started it but I think he lacked the skill and options to finish it. Definitely he doesn't understand lowering his level in a western way or using his head.
2) the Grey Vest guy is obviously much better to begin with and also he's not really trying any countering moves other than to just sink his base and be content to thwart the bear hug.
- the dude had cool options but he probably didn't want to hurt the other guy is all.


For most of the push hands stuff grey vest just outright dominates to the point it starts to look fake. But once the guy in black get's a bearhug & even though it is at poor high level the guy in the grey actually struggles to shake him loose.

Interesting.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:32 pm

Some wrestling sport totally ignore the "striking". Other wrestling sport still consider "striking" even if it's not allowed to be used. When wrestling became part of the MMA, this problem that people ignore striking during wrestling has been resolved. IMO, for a good clinch, you should be able to control both of your opponent's arms.

In the following clip, the old man had controlled both of his opponent's arms when he applied his throwing.



Just by using "common sense", it's easy to tell that 3 > 2 > 1.

1. The following head lock give his opponent 2 free arms.

Image

2. The following head lock only give his opponent 1 free arm.

Image

3. The following head lock give his opponent no free arms.

Last edited by johnwang on Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby cloudz on Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:13 am

johnwang wrote:
robert wrote:A shoulder throw "proper" would be executed from the inside. In that app. he goes outside which might work better with some modifying, but he's not really showing that very well at all,

That's "outer shoulder throw".



ok nice thanks.
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Re: Internal and Clinch

Postby BruceP on Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:10 am

Shoulder and hip throws = Pick-Up-Needle
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