Internal and Clinch

[johnwang]

Hi John no actually I'm right handed. I use the left foot forward because my original first style was American boxing. It's funny that you said that because I was one of the only ones in karate with a left foot forward everyone else was right.

I'm right handed. If people who wrestled with me long enough, they all turned into left handed. I like to use my left hand to control my opponent's right arm. My opponent always tried to move his right arm back and kept his left arm forward instead. Also I don't let my opponent to attack me through my left side. I only encourage my opponent to attack me through my right side. After a couple of years, I can change a right handed person into a left handed person.

I had turned this girl (taller one) into left handed.

[Subitai]

Now can I return to my forms? LOL!

Willie, Willie, Willie... I commend you for putting up a video. Any of us that do it is putting ourselves out there for scrutiny.

That being said, you put the title of "Taichi grappling at home" in your video so please don't take my comments as negative and realize that people will make comments.

PRO: since you are supposed to be doing TaiChi Grappling, I have to stay in the confines of how Most Taiji is practiced
- so yes lowering your level and also creating space is fine.

Cons: I really wish you hadn't mentioned (in a previous post) that your sons best friend was a High School and Collegiate wrestler. He maybe strong but his friends skill doesn't translate to him by magic. It's obvious to someone like me WHO has grappled in hundreds of matches.
- At about 33secs the way he comes in for the shot / grab says it all.
(1) He doesn't lower his level, his hips (too high)
(2) this causes him to grab cinch too high across your back and Lats. That is Incorrect, if you wanna fold someone it has to be lower in the middle of the spine or at the base.
(3)He's not using his head (he could bury it in your temple) that would cause room to sink tighter.
=====================================
About what you called "The Elbow Thing" LOL

Pro: What you did would have limited (short lived) success on Taiji people playing at Taiji games that limit movement...but that's about it. Left arm Bridging out like that (too long) would only tell me as a Taiji player where your strength is.

Cons: A grappler doesn't clinch with you just to put strength on you... he looks for openings. Again, it's because you said High school / Collegiate wrestling that I'm making these comments.

- When you Bridged your left arm like that, a grappler would just use his right hand to post up on your Left elbow and shoot under properly. By Shoot I mean to literally Lower your level (hips) and come from underneath you. With the spine over your base so that you can be lifted or grabbed properly. An Example would be executing a "high Crotch". None of this shitty over leaning forward stuff you see newbies do.

- Sitting into your lower stance and not keeping your feet alive and moving as you did, when your chair saved you is the primary reason traditional Martial Artists get taken down when they think "THEIR SUNKEN IMMOBILE STANCE" will save them. It's been proven world wide to fail VS good grapplers not shitty average people off the street. But we should always train for the best.

====================================================================
The way you 1st describe the attack in your video i.e. a Clinch to cinch = to a possible gut wrench is not wrong. I'm only making comments on it because you said you had MMA experience and therefore it's not just talking about Tai Chi only.
* However the one thing you did not mention was the particular SPEED or VIOLENCE of this middle back CINCH (not too high)

It's explosive, literally the arms Constrict Inward like a powerful snare trap with HIGH SPEED and this will cause a person to fold like a dollar bill Just to remind people that it's not just some forward tackle.

[marvin8]

Can anybody put up a Taiji clip?

Randy Brown Mantis Boxer
Published on Dec 10, 2015

Defenses against the Bear Hug (Body Clinch) to takedown (Crashing Tide). Here we use the Mantis Boxing and Tai Chi principle known as Kao (Lean), to establish position and counter the takedown. Once established - recede into the opponent’s center to reverse them into a throw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjLk2H60kFc

Randy Brown Mantis Boxer
Published on Dec 3, 2015

Episode 09 we focus on a Mantis Boxing principle known as Kao (Lean). Using the Kao principle, Randy creates space to clear and reverse the hooks and lock out the shoulder. Some finishing moves on the ground are provided as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lrsv_rjB4M

For both videos you just showed? I don't mean offensively towards you when I say this but, "what the fuck does a guy have to say??? Top of page 3 I said it already.

But, you did not put up a Taiji video. I didn't bother to re-read and quote all the prior posts. As, I knew no one had posted a Taiji clip. I responded directly to johnwang's post by "putting up a Taiji clip," without giving an opinion. The guy in the videos claimed he was using a Taiji principle. There was no Taiji video in this thread, other than mine, until willie posted his.

I do not take offense. I appreciate your experience and details (as well as others) in explaining your thoughts on subjects.

[Trick]

Are you left handed? This old man was left handed too.

Hi John no actually I'm right handed. I use the left foot forward because my original first style was American boxing. It's funny that you said that because I was one of the only ones in karate with a left foot forward everyone else was right.[/quote]
Nothing important, but quite unusual many southpaw's in that Karate school

[willie]

Cons: I really wish you hadn't mentioned (in a previous post) that your sons best friend was a High School and Collegiate wrestler. He maybe strong but his friends skill doesn't translate to him by magic. It's.

My son was not interested in learning his wrestling. if I remember right my son never lost to him once. I find it very interesting that you commented only on Martial movement and not on the energy of the movement . you see I am very pleased with my tai chi development . Yes I spent a few years in MMA and it is a very very good art but to me I've always been more interested in the cultural side of the Asian Arts . Tai Chi filled in the void Thanks for your comments. PS I forgot, that other comment that you made about the dead Stance being incorrect. Unfortunately again you are wrong. That stance is a concept that I got from a yang style master who was quite proficient. The purpose of that is to Deadman and make them change from trying their move 2 forcing them to hold me up and wasting all their energy. The key word in that is change . Thanks

[willie]

Nothing important, but quite unusual many southpaw's in that Karate school

hi trick, the reason why they had their right leg forward is because, my sensei from way back then believed in keeping the strong-side forward.

[willie]

Hi John no actually I'm right handed. I use the left foot forward because my original first style was American boxing. It's funny that you said that because I was one of the only ones in karate with a left foot forward everyone else was right.

I'm right handed. If people who wrestled with me long enough, they all turned into left handed. I like to use my left hand to control my opponent's right arm. My opponent always tried to move his right arm back and kept his left arm forward instead. Also I don't let my opponent to attack me through my left side. I only encourage my opponent to attack me through my right side. After a couple of years, I can change a right handed person into a left handed person.

I had turned this girl (taller one) into left handed.

Hi john, I can't really comment on your video too much because, I don't know that style.
looks like you guys use a lot of hip toss?
Yes, I often use the left hand to "check" or "seal" off in-coming forces.
Thanks for your reply.

[johnwang]

the reason why they had their right leg forward is because, my sensei from way back then believed in keeping the strong-side forward.

This is the general issue for people who trains both the striking art and the wrestling art.

- In striking art, you want to put your strong side backward. You want your strong hand to have the maximum knock down power.
- In wrestling art, you want to put your strong side forward. You want your strong hand to defend your territory and be as closer to your opponent as possible (such as to use your front hand to push back on your opponent's shoulder to maintain distance).

looks like you guys use a lot of hip toss?

Hip throw is the mother of all throws. From hip throw, you can develop leg break, leg block, leg twist, leg lift, ...

[willie]

the reason why they had their right leg forward is because, my sensei from way back then believed in keeping the strong-side forward.

This is the general issue for people who trains both the striking art and the wrestling art.

- In striking art, you want to put your strong side backward. You want your strong hand to have the maximum knock down power.
- In wrestling art, you want to put your strong side forward. You want your strong hand to defend your territory and be as closer to your opponent as possible (such as to use your front hand to push back on your opponent's shoulder to maintain distance).

looks like you guys use a lot of hip toss?

Hip throw is the mother of all throws. From hip throw, you can develop leg break, leg block, leg twist, leg lift, ...

Sounds right. Karate days was a very long time ago for me. Those were the good ol days,before the UFC. A time when everyone had their own unique style.
Everything has become too commercialized now. My old Shihan was a V.I.P. guest ringside at UFC 1.

[taiwandeutscher]

Now can I return to my forms? LOL!

Most of your vids are gone so quickly, that we over in Asia never have a chance to view them.
You posted, when I was already asleep, when I'm awake the vid is not available anymore!

[dspyrido]

Now can I return to my forms? LOL!

Willie, Willie, Willie... I commend you for putting up a video. Any of us that do it is putting ourselves out there for scrutiny.

That being said, you put the title of "Taichi grappling at home" in your video so please don't take my comments as negative and realize that people will make comments.

PRO: since you are supposed to be doing TaiChi Grappling, I have to stay in the confines of how Most Taiji is practiced
- so yes lowering your level and also creating space is fine.

Cons: I really wish you hadn't mentioned (in a previous post) that your sons best friend was a High School and Collegiate wrestler. He maybe strong but his friends skill doesn't translate to him by magic. It's obvious to someone like me WHO has grappled in hundreds of matches.
- At about 33secs the way he comes in for the shot / grab says it all.
(1) He doesn't lower his level, his hips (too high)
(2) this causes him to grab cinch too high across your back and Lats. That is Incorrect, if you wanna fold someone it has to be lower in the middle of the spine or at the base.
(3)He's not using his head (he could bury it in your temple) that would cause room to sink tighter.
=====================================
About what you called "The Elbow Thing" LOL

Pro: What you did would have limited (short lived) success on Taiji people playing at Taiji games that limit movement...but that's about it. Left arm Bridging out like that (too long) would only tell me as a Taiji player where your strength is.

Cons: A grappler doesn't clinch with you just to put strength on you... he looks for openings. Again, it's because you said High school / Collegiate wrestling that I'm making these comments.

- When you Bridged your left arm like that, a grappler would just use his right hand to post up on your Left elbow and shoot under properly. By Shoot I mean to literally Lower your level (hips) and come from underneath you. With the spine over your base so that you can be lifted or grabbed properly. An Example would be executing a "high Crotch". None of this shitty over leaning forward stuff you see newbies do.

- Sitting into your lower stance and not keeping your feet alive and moving as you did, when your chair saved you is the primary reason traditional Martial Artists get taken down when they think "THEIR SUNKEN IMMOBILE STANCE" will save them. It's been proven world wide to fail VS good grapplers not shitty average people off the street. But we should always train for the best.

====================================================================
The way you 1st describe the attack in your video i.e. a Clinch to cinch = to a possible gut wrench is not wrong. I'm only making comments on it because you said you had MMA experience and therefore it's not just talking about Tai Chi only.
* However the one thing you did not mention was the particular SPEED or VIOLENCE of this middle back CINCH (not too high)

It's explosive, literally the arms Constrict Inward like a powerful snare trap with HIGH SPEED and this will cause a person to fold like a dollar bill Just to remind people that it's not just some forward tackle.

I don't think I even saw a clinch before it was pulled down.

1. There was a good amount of pushing and embracing involved but not really clinching. This seems to be a constant in TC push hands where palms are placed on the elbow or back but are not locked in.

TC:




Clinching involves grabbing the hands and locking in tight (ie gable grip or s-grip are common):






2. Subitai as you mentioned - getting into the clinch is usually accompanied by head control & changing levels (height changes). Again it's not being done which might work for push hands but is a very different experience when wrestling.





So no clinching in TC? Does no one drill controlling and escaping the head manipulation as an entry level? Or is this the realm of shuaijiow only?

[Trick]

looks like you guys use a lot of hip toss?

Hip throw is the mother of all throws. From hip throw, you can develop leg break, leg block, leg twist, leg lift, ...

I believe the hip throw is hiding in every corner of the TJQ forms, maybe I'm just imagine or they are not easily seen. Anyway I've not seen or met any TJQ teacher who practice it application wise except for one of my YTJQ teachers who is also a ShuaiJiao teacher .

[Subitai]

Now can I return to my forms? LOL!

Willie, Willie, Willie... I commend you for putting up a video. Any of us that do it is putting ourselves out there for scrutiny.

That being said, you put the title of "Taichi grappling at home" in your video so please don't take my comments as negative and realize that people will make comments.

PRO: since you are supposed to be doing TaiChi Grappling, I have to stay in the confines of how Most Taiji is practiced
- so yes lowering your level and also creating space is fine.

Cons: I really wish you hadn't mentioned (in a previous post) that your sons best friend was a High School and Collegiate wrestler. He maybe strong but his friends skill doesn't translate to him by magic. It's obvious to someone like me WHO has grappled in hundreds of matches.
- At about 33secs the way he comes in for the shot / grab says it all.
(1) He doesn't lower his level, his hips (too high)
(2) this causes him to grab cinch too high across your back and Lats. That is Incorrect, if you wanna fold someone it has to be lower in the middle of the spine or at the base.
(3)He's not using his head (he could bury it in your temple) that would cause room to sink tighter.
=====================================
About what you called "The Elbow Thing" LOL

Pro: What you did would have limited (short lived) success on Taiji people playing at Taiji games that limit movement...but that's about it. Left arm Bridging out like that (too long) would only tell me as a Taiji player where your strength is.

Cons: A grappler doesn't clinch with you just to put strength on you... he looks for openings. Again, it's because you said High school / Collegiate wrestling that I'm making these comments.

- When you Bridged your left arm like that, a grappler would just use his right hand to post up on your Left elbow and shoot under properly. By Shoot I mean to literally Lower your level (hips) and come from underneath you. With the spine over your base so that you can be lifted or grabbed properly. An Example would be executing a "high Crotch". None of this shitty over leaning forward stuff you see newbies do.

- Sitting into your lower stance and not keeping your feet alive and moving as you did, when your chair saved you is the primary reason traditional Martial Artists get taken down when they think "THEIR SUNKEN IMMOBILE STANCE" will save them. It's been proven world wide to fail VS good grapplers not shitty average people off the street. But we should always train for the best.

====================================================================
The way you 1st describe the attack in your video i.e. a Clinch to cinch = to a possible gut wrench is not wrong. I'm only making comments on it because you said you had MMA experience and therefore it's not just talking about Tai Chi only.
* However the one thing you did not mention was the particular SPEED or VIOLENCE of this middle back CINCH (not too high)

It's explosive, literally the arms Constrict Inward like a powerful snare trap with HIGH SPEED and this will cause a person to fold like a dollar bill Just to remind people that it's not just some forward tackle.

I don't think I even saw a clinch before it was pulled down.

1. There was a good amount of pushing and embracing involved but not really clinching. This seems to be a constant in TC push hands where palms are placed on the elbow or back but are not locked in.

TC:




Clinching involves grabbing the hands and locking in tight (ie gable grip or s-grip are common):






2. Subitai as you mentioned - getting into the clinch is usually accompanied by head control & changing levels (height changes). Again it's not being done which might work for push hands but is a very different experience when wrestling.





So no clinching in TC? Does no one drill controlling and escaping the head manipulation as an entry level? Or is this the realm of shuaijiow only?

Just want to say that Cary Kolat is one to be admired... his career was amazing and so is his skill.

For your question # (1) The video is down? haha, ok well in the very beginning Willie had pretty much solo demonstrated the correct form for a around the torso clinch to cinch or as Cary calls it a bear hug. Technically a standing clinch doesn't need to have hands locked persay...for example the picture you put up above with Chen Xiaowang vs a big Wrestler is a clinch, abeit a loose one. Especially if the wrestler just grabs CXW with an over / under, (I.e. Left overhook & Right underhook) it's right there for him to grab easily.

- Again I want to reiterate that I only commented on Willies video because of the mention of MMA and high school / collegiate wrestling in a previous post by him.

- Also the title of the video was "Taichi grappling at home" so it was fine what he showed in "Those Confines of his Context"


* As far as does Taiji people actually Lock their hands behind the back ala bear hug style, of course it happens. Although I think it's greatly diminished in the U.S.A. (i.e. NOT in competitions but in private only).
I much prefer how it's wide open (almost like Sumo in Asia). When you see the rules and judges in the USA during Fixed Step and Moving Step...they really don't want to see you Grappling in a way that looks western. I disagree with that...It's all Martial arts to me...hard and soft / Western or Asian. You either can make it work or not, that is the only litmus test.

But I remember on here a challenge video from a while back (I'm gonna search for it) Here it is below at around 1:55sec

The guy in Black trys to bear hug:
1) He started it but I think he lacked the skill and options to finish it. Definitely he doesn't understand lowering his level in a western way or using his head.
2) the Grey Vest guy is obviously much better to begin with and also he's not really trying any countering moves other than to just sink his base and be content to thwart the bear hug.
- the dude had cool options but he probably didn't want to hurt the other guy is all.

[johnwang]

I believe the hip throw is hiding in every corner of the TJQ forms, maybe I'm just imagine or they are not easily seen.

I have not seen "hip throw" exist in any Taiji system.

[GrandUltimate]

It seems to me that we all agree that "clinch" can happen. Now the questions are:

1. How to avoid a clinch?
2. How to deal with a clinch?

Of course if you can run faster than your opponent can, the clinch can never happen. But the moment you step in and punch at your opponent, the clinch can happen.

If we're talking about a bear hug type of clinch as shown in the OP, then eyebrow mopping like in SC would be one possible way to deal with the bear hug clinch. Would you consider eyebrow mopping as being a skill within arts like Tai Chi, Bagua, etc?

If were talking a more muay thai type of clinch (hands controlling the back of the head, elbows locked against the body, etc), there's always things like using a gable grip to reach around with both hands and squeeze the back of the head/neck area while using the forehead to mop against the other guy's head and break the person's structure. I cross trained with a Xing Yi guy (mainly Shanxi Che but with some xingyi dao and dai xin yi stuff mixed in) who put so much emphasis on using the head to strike or add pressure while moving. I wonder if they'd use a similar application.