Where do your fingers go

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Appledog on Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:37 am

oragami_itto wrote:In the press posture, there is some variation in the placement of the left hand relative to the right between different traditions.

So where do you put your left hand? Why?

Touching or not touching?

Left hand Palm or fingers?

Right arm, palm, wrist, or forearm?


Steve Rowe wrote:Left palm 3 fingers away from right wrist pulse. The 'squeeze' action is rotating left wrist so the fingers point upwards and right hand thumb rolls outwards, pressing down the bodycore until the arches of the feet flatten to the floor creating the pulse and 'float' at the release.



So what's wrong with the way you learned it? If you learned it why then do you still have a question?

Every now and then, three weeks to a month, someone posts a question here about Tai Chi that is actually very interesting and if only they could get an answer they would be able to make a great breakthrough. Therefore here with this question you have won the post of the month award. Once again though no one has answered your question. I am not sure why. I asked one gentleman why he didn't answer questions like this and he told me he enjoyed lording secrets over the general population (of neijia players). I suspect many people here really just can't answer, but want to help by pointing you in the right way. Unfortunately this ends up mainly in the wrong direction. Your own answer is the most correct, beyond that, you should probably ask your teacher.

The answer is a little long and commands some foreknowledge so I would rather not type it all out here, but it is in fact a very interesting question you have here which you should continue to investigate.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Bao on Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:44 am

Appledog wrote:Once again though no one has answered your question. I am not sure why. I asked one gentleman why he didn't answer questions like this and he told me he enjoyed lording secrets over the general population (of neijia players). I suspect many people here really just can't answer, but want to help by pointing you in the right way.


Ok, I try to give my answer. Why not try to reply on the question? I was very busy, had caught a cold and forgot about it.

To the original question: How and why? Depends on what use and which application you have in mind. For Yang style, I prefer to have a light support with the fingertips, like a broadsword support. Then you can easily change and move the palm on the other wrist if necessary or hide the hand behind the other and strike with a fist if opportunity arises.

Some people I used to practice with make the "sword hand", our use the two index fingers for support. Some others use it on both hands, suggesting a pressure point attack.

Image

For other styles, i.e. Hao/Wu and Sun, the hands don't meet. The most common application is for qinna use, to grasp an arm, one hand at the opponent's wrist, and the other hand at the elbow.

Agree with Wayne that the rear arms is Yang, or more active and the hand in front yin or more passive. That's the same for all Tai Chi styles.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby oragami_itto on Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:59 am

Appledog wrote:



So what's wrong with the way you learned it? If you learned it why then do you still have a question?


Nothing wrong with how I learned it, just always trying to learn more about it. You tend to take these kinds of details for granted. Curious as to how others do their thing and what reasons they have for it.

I suspect many people here really just can't answer, but want to help by pointing you in the right way. Unfortunately this ends up mainly in the wrong direction. Your own answer is the most correct, beyond that, you should probably ask your teacher.


Thank you.

What I've come to learn is that RSF/EF is filled with many passionate and dedicated players who are highly skilled but may have vastly different vocabularies for the jargon and completely different perspectives that may not always allow for honest examination of the full body of collected knowledge.

Plus, long explanations that text fails to capture, plus the lording secret knowledge, plus insecurity about looking ignorant or foolish.

I am a loquacious fool who feels taijiquan belongs to the world and that each of us develops a unique expression of it.



The answer is a little long and commands some foreknowledge so I would rather not type it all out here, but it is in fact a very interesting question you have here which you should continue to investigate.


Thank you. I'm taking my time to review and write up each posture in the 150, breaking them down as completely as my skill and understanding allows. This question has been bugging me for about a month. I have the answer according to my tradition (that the thread helped me vocalize) but I'm seeking that fullness of perspective that comes from examining multiple viewpoints.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Trick on Thu Nov 23, 2017 7:15 am

Appledog wrote: I suspect many people here really just can't answer, but want to help by pointing you in the right way. Unfortunately this ends up mainly in the wrong direction. Your own answer is the most correct, beyond that, you should probably ask your teacher.

The answer is a little long and commands some foreknowledge so I would rather not type it all out here, but it is in fact a very interesting question you have here which you should continue to investigate.

Hehe, many people here can not answer but you can but you won't do 8-) But actually you kind of answered with the "your own answer is the most correct",thats how it very much was for me. My first Taiji teacher talked a lot about acupoints and chakras and such. I did not believe and did not care about that kind of teaching so I began to figure out combat applications on my own, years later the very same applications was shown to me by other teachers that focused more on that approach. For press it can be a simple joint lock that follows rollback, but of course that kind of applications are secondary. Teachings of an exact position of the fingers while form practising is of little or no value. But if there is a bag of potatoe chips or a cockie jar in my immediate surrounding my fingers know their exact positioning in to those
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Ron Panunto on Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:49 am

Depends on the form and applications. Yang does palm to palm, Chen does forearm to forearm. Application is that the outside hand/arm establishes the bridge and the inner hand pushes into the connection to up root the opponent.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby BruceP on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:06 am

Someone in our group actually asked that question once during form practice.

We all did a few push-ups using press from right and left with the supporting forearm directly beneath the clavicles, then the chest, then the throat. First off the floor and then off a wall, and then off each other. Crossed creases between each hand's thenar and hypothenar offered the best 'connection', but there were other preferred matches depending on the position.

Turned out that it can be used to stuff a clinch or create space while in clinch - among a host of other practical applications. So your fingers go where they need to.

It's different with form, though, because you're creating a binding and stretching interaction along different 'meridians' and everyone's internal structure (and meridian structure) is different. So again, your fingers go where they need to.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby shawnsegler on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:04 am

I have an interesting video a buddy gave me a long time ago by Yu Cheng Hsiang, and he speaks of press as "Not much to do", the gist of it being that while it's important to know it, it's most useful as a technique of opportunity, that being when you're in a position where you've moved together in such a way that their position allows you from your position to use both hands to combine the whole bodies energy into a point where you throw them out. FWIW.

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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Bhassler on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:09 am

I think Ji is more of a concept than an actual technique, although there may be specific techniques associated with drills designed to train Ji. That fits in well with the numerous "it depends" answers thus far in the thread.

BruceP wrote:Someone in our group actually asked that question once during form practice.

We all did a few push-ups using press from right and left with the supporting forearm directly beneath the clavicles, then the chest, then the throat. First off the floor and then off a wall, and then off each other. Crossed creases between each hand's thenar and hypothenar offered the best 'connection', but there were other preferred matches depending on the position.

Turned out that it can be used to stuff a clinch or create space while in clinch - among a host of other practical applications. So your fingers go where they need to.

It's different with form, though, because you're creating a binding and stretching interaction along different 'meridians' and everyone's internal structure (and meridian structure) is different. So again, your fingers go where they need to.


Geez Bruce, what kind of heathen just tries this stuff to see what works? Surely, you would have been better off poring over some highly subjective translation of what some old dead guy wrote once over a pot of mulled wine. Sometimes, I just don't know what to do with you...

Silliness aside, do you have a method for helping people discover their personal "binding and stretching interactions", or is it more of a felt sense based on their experience of the more concrete applications?
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby shawnsegler on Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:12 am

a method for helping people discover their personal "binding and stretching interactions"


I believe that just comes from years of repetitive practice.

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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Subitai on Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:45 pm

In my Yang style...press/forward with hollow chest, relaxed shoulders out of the joint and sunk elbows.

Center of the left palm over the major thumb muscle in the right hand palm

The four fingers of the left hand, over the top of the (right Thumb).......... NOT as if perfectly palm to palm with the left fingers inside the right hand tigers mouth. This way the right muscle fits perfectly in the hollow of the Left Palm no spaces.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby BruceP on Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:22 am

Bhassler wrote:
Silliness aside, do you have a method for helping people discover their personal "binding and stretching interactions", or is it more of a felt sense based on their experience of the more concrete applications?


It's all silliness. I've used Neutrality Principle quite a bit in getting people on the path to discovery and exploration of their personal 'innervations'. It only takes a glimpse to open the door.

From stillness, the "full intent in stasis" work is all a person needs most times. Roundness/without corners is also pretty effective - like White-Stork posture and Part-Horse's-Mane from both sides.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby amor on Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:36 pm

Steve Rowe wrote:Left palm 3 fingers away from right wrist pulse. The 'squeeze' action is rotating left wrist so the fingers point upwards and right hand thumb rolls outwards, pressing down the bodycore until the arches of the feet flatten to the floor creating the pulse and 'float' at the release.


This is pretty much how it is for me too. What is that you say, Ni chan on the left hand and shun chan on the right hand?
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Appledog on Sat Nov 25, 2017 10:54 am

Bhassler wrote:Geez Bruce, what kind of heathen just tries this stuff to see what works? Surely, you would have been better off poring over some highly subjective translation of what some old dead guy wrote once over a pot of mulled wine. Sometimes, I just don't know what to do with you...

Silliness aside, do you have a method for helping people discover their personal "binding and stretching interactions", or is it more of a felt sense based on their experience of the more concrete applications?


Everyone has the same meridian system, it's not different from different people. So the exercises to work with this system, qi gong, are pretty much the same for everyone.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Steve Rowe on Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:11 pm

amor wrote:
Steve Rowe wrote:Left palm 3 fingers away from right wrist pulse. The 'squeeze' action is rotating left wrist so the fingers point upwards and right hand thumb rolls outwards, pressing down the bodycore until the arches of the feet flatten to the floor creating the pulse and 'float' at the release.


This is pretty much how it is for me too. What is that you say, Ni chan on the left hand and shun chan on the right hand?


My Chinese/Japanese is not good, do you mean like older/younger brother relationship?
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Appledog on Sat Nov 25, 2017 11:41 pm

Trick wrote:Hehe, many people here can not answer but you can but you won't do 8-)


It's a pain because of the chaos that ensues when you say something that appears like new information to people who have valid experience-based knowledge, because it appears as if you are discounting the hard work and experience they have put in (even if that isn't the intention). So I were to explain it, I would prefer to do it like this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClmtcwfWI6M

In short, if we ever were to discuss it I think we would eventually come to the only conclusion possible. But you first have to have a way to determine why all the other explanations are wrong. In that sense past discussions have been clouded by people with incorrect or corrupted information. After all my research I believe I have discovered a clean path into the system, such that Taiji (in particular) can be opened up as a public art, i.e. "Open Taijiquan" ala Open Source, Open Office, and so forth. The question is why -- if that can't be answered it is illusory knowledge, and may cease to work in the future if "something changes". The second thing is that it should be formulated as an AMA, so that there is an agreed upon stage (my opinion) and moderator (myself). The last thing anyone needs is yet another dr. obvious. If you ask the question it would be assumed you are ready to accept the answer. That's important for such a discussion to happen.

As to exactly where your fingers go, everyone's meridian system is exactly the same and the function and purpose is exactly the same. The differences occur in precisely the particular application, the intention, or shall we use the secret word kakari which causes the frame to settle in various ways.
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