Where do your fingers go

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Trick on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:01 am

Appledog wrote:
Trick wrote:Hehe, many people here can not answer but you can but you won't do 8-)


It's a pain because of the chaos that ensues when you say something that appears like new information to people who have valid experience-based knowledge, because it appears as if you are discounting the hard work and experience they have put in (even if that isn't the intention). So I were to explain it, I would prefer to do it like this...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClmtcwfWI6M

In short, if we ever were to discuss it I think we would eventually come to the only conclusion possible. But you first have to have a way to determine why all the other explanations are wrong. In that sense past discussions have been clouded by people with incorrect or corrupted information. After all my research I believe I have discovered a clean path into the system, such that Taiji (in particular) can be opened up as a public art, i.e. "Open Taijiquan" ala Open Source, Open Office, and so forth. The question is why -- if that can't be answered it is illusory knowledge, and may cease to work in the future if "something changes". The second thing is that it should be formulated as an AMA, so that there is an agreed upon stage (my opinion) and moderator (myself). The last thing anyone needs is yet another dr. obvious. If you ask the question it would be assumed you are ready to accept the answer. That's important for such a discussion to happen.

As to exactly where your fingers go, everyone's meridian system is exactly the same and the function and purpose is exactly the same. The differences occur in precisely the particular application, the intention, or shall we use the secret word kakari which causes the frame to settle in various ways.
Why the drama, why not just say where the fingers go(according to you).....without secret words
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:01 pm

Where the left palm goes depends on if you are using prolonged or abrupt energy and whether the right arm is closest to the horizontal or vertical
Other factors are what style you are doing and how your opponent moves their body
Press in the form is but an indication of one way the energy it teaches can be used
There are plenty of pushing exercises that use press in a dynamic form
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:02 pm

Press is like a crossbow
Don't put power into the form let it naturally arise from the form
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:11 pm

Yes, but when you practice your form, where do you, personally, put your left hand?
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Steve James on Sun Nov 26, 2017 1:46 pm

I'm thinking of Snake sticks out his Tongue.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby wayne hansen on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:09 pm

It depends on what my opponent does
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Appledog on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:16 pm

Trick wrote:Why the drama, why not just say where the fingers go(according to you).....without secret words


The last couple of posts by me are actually an answer to the question you just asked. You have to approach the situation in special ways because if you just come out and say it then people who disagree will spoil the conversation. Or any number of other problems. There is also the credibility issue. Anyone giving out such information would naturally expect to be respected to the point where giving the information in the first place was not merely casting pearls before swine. So that is another barrier to just casually explaining the secrets of tai chi on a RSF thread .This isn't a moderated forum in the sense that two people can have a normal discussion and stay on topic, which is what is required for this kind of discourse. If it was formulated as an AMA, perhaps with two threads (one for questions and one for answers) I think it would be more productive considering those issues I mentioned.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Appledog on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:17 pm

oragami_itto wrote:Yes, but when you practice your form, where do you, personally, put your left hand?


The fact is that giving any answer at all to this question would be dangerously incorrect, because the question itself is based on a misunderstanding of the form.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:34 pm

Appledog wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Yes, but when you practice your form, where do you, personally, put your left hand?


The fact is that giving any answer at all to this question would be dangerously incorrect, because the question itself is based on a misunderstanding of the form.


Pardon my ignorance, but what is so hard to understand about "what do you do with your left hand during the movement commonly named press in Yang taijiquan"?

I suppose I'm so ignorant that I don't understand the misunderstanding. It seems pretty straight forward. The why can get expansive, but a simple question of the mechanics of form are no cosmic secret.

Now all the vague musings and pretension is fun and all but if increasing understanding is any sort of goal of yours then it does not serve it.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Trick on Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:03 pm

Appledog wrote:
Trick wrote:Why the drama, why not just say where the fingers go(according to you).....without secret words


The last couple of posts by me are actually an answer to the question you just asked. You have to approach the situation in special ways because if you just come out and say it then people who disagree will spoil the conversation. Or any number of other problems. There is also the credibility issue. Anyone giving out such information would naturally expect to be respected to the point where giving the information in the first place was not merely casting pearls before swine. So that is another barrier to just casually explaining the secrets of tai chi on a RSF thread .This isn't a moderated forum in the sense that two people can have a normal discussion and stay on topic, which is what is required for this kind of discourse. If it was formulated as an AMA, perhaps with two threads (one for questions and one for answers) I think it would be more productive considering those issues I mentioned.

Zen riddler, where does your fingers go -abracadabra kakari
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Appledog on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:02 am

Trick wrote:Zen riddler, where does your fingers go -abracadabra kakari


A valid point.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby cloudz on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:58 am

oragami_itto wrote:In the press posture, there is some variation in the placement of the left hand relative to the right between different traditions.

So where do you put your left hand? Why?


I generally go towards my wrist area with the palm.

Touching or not touching?


Sometimes touching sometimes not, mixed bag on that one.

Left hand Palm or fingers?


palm, towards the lower end when touching.

Right arm, palm, wrist, or forearm?


From around the wrist crease and on toward the forearm.
Last edited by cloudz on Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Subitai on Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:26 pm

Of course what would be interesting is if everyone here were in the same room...we'd all be correct right?

As the saying goes..."in a room full of sifus, everyone is # 1" (Or nobody will admit to being 2nd best)

Naturally we'd all come up with various reasons for doing what we do and it'd really depend on the circumstance. I think it reasonable that in the end, we'd probably all agree to some basic commons.

Funny how Wayne mentioned crossbow...I once said that to my students to describe the shape and power of direction when my left hand was pressing my center forearm.

====================================

As per oragami_itto OP... In reference to the "press" posture

I think you should also be curious as to how much fingers are showing (sticking up in the air) or NOT. For example, your Left Hand fingers could be naturally curved and relaxed downward (closer to the arm), or they could be standing straight up.

Most haters of the Fingers up will argue that you could get your fingers Grabbed and broken.

.....there's actually a ton to write about these things. Depends the teachings...again, in a room full of teachers it'd be all day with this stuff.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby amor on Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:20 am

Steve Rowe wrote:
amor wrote:
Steve Rowe wrote:Left palm 3 fingers away from right wrist pulse. The 'squeeze' action is rotating left wrist so the fingers point upwards and right hand thumb rolls outwards, pressing down the bodycore until the arches of the feet flatten to the floor creating the pulse and 'float' at the release.


This is pretty much how it is for me too. What is that you say, Ni chan on the left hand and shun chan on the right hand?


My Chinese/Japanese is not good, do you mean like older/younger brother relationship?


The Shun and Ni chan refers to the twisting of the hands away or towards the center which causes spirals elsewhere in the body, thought everyone knew this, been a few threads on it. It's talked about more so in chen style than other styles but its in every style I presume if spiral movement is what you are looking to do.
I mentioned it because the positioning you described with the hands is similar to what is felt in some chen style silk reeling fundamental exercises imo.
Last edited by amor on Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Where do your fingers go

Postby Steve Rowe on Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:42 am

Amor - Thank you - didn't know that terminology. That is how it is for me - they connect the internal squeeze right down until the arches of the feet flatten to the floor.
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