Principle -> Application

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Principle -> Application

Postby johnwang on Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:44 pm

Sometime people try to find application from the forms (such as hip throw in Taiji form). IMO, this is not the right approach.

All MA systems have a finite set of "principles" that the system is built on. You should not find application from forms. You should find application from principle.

principle -> application

For example, a foot sweep principle can create more than 30 different kind of different foot sweep application. Since it's impossible to record all the foot sweep application into your forms, if you try to create application from forms, you will only create a small subset of your foot sweep principle.

What's your opinion on this?
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:55 pm

Basically

Form-> application->principle
Then just principle
Last edited by oragami_itto on Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby Bao on Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:56 pm

Agree 100% to JW.

Also, you never have time to figure out what is coming against you, so you have no time to choose between possible techniques. So you really need to understand very broad principles that can be used in many different ways according to circumstances.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby BruceP on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:01 pm

johnwang wrote:Sometime people try to find application from the forms (such as hip throw in Taiji form). IMO, this is not the right approach.

All MA systems have a finite set of "principles" that the system is built on. You should not find application from forms. You should find application from principle.

principle -> application

For example, a foot sweep principle can create more than 30 different kind of different foot sweep application. Since it's impossible to record all the foot sweep application into your forms, if you try to create application from forms, you will only create a small subset of your foot sweep principle.

What's your opinion on this?


Kind of agree

I've never viewed the movement sequences as applications or techniques. I don't even consider them to be principles or methods. They're ideas.

Pick-Up-Needle can be used as a throw or an ankle pick, or for picking carrots
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby C.J.W. on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:43 pm

johnwang wrote:Sometime people try to find application from the forms (such as hip throw in Taiji form). IMO, this is not the right approach.

All MA systems have a finite set of "principles" that the system is built on. You should not find application from forms. You should find application from principle.

principle -> application

For example, a foot sweep principle can create more than 30 different kind of different foot sweep application. Since it's impossible to record all the foot sweep application into your forms, if you try to create application from forms, you will only create a small subset of your foot sweep principle.

What's your opinion on this?


Every style has its unique principles (body mechanics) that it relies on to create leverage, power, and speed. The purpose of form training, IMO, is to repeatedly instill those principles in you until they become second nature. Eventually, every movement you make becomes an embodiment of the style you practice. That, when combined with experiences gained through free-sparring and fighting, is what allows you to react and adapt instinctively -- in other words, creating applications as a situation arises -- in combat.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby oragami_itto on Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:05 pm

Without defining terms, the discussion gets murky quick.

Form:
1: A series of choreographed movements
2: The shape of your body (posture)
Application:
1: An idea about a way that a specific posture could work against an opponent
2: Using your art against an opponent
Principle:
1: The idea expressed by Form and Application

So basically, Form(1) is a sequence of Form(2).

Form(2) must be present in the body before you can go any further. What's the point of discussing the principle of swordplay if you don't have a sword? It's just empty talk.

Once Form(2) is present in the body, then Form(1) is possible.

Form(1) can be the entire 108,130,150,37,72 posture sequences, or it can be the transition between any two points within that larger sequence. Preparation to cross-hands is a single movement from one perspective. Grasp Sparrow's tail is 4 or 1. It doesn't matter. The formal "postures" are just reference points.

So with Form(2) and Form(1), we can practice with Application(1) in mind, imagining the opponent as we do the form moving according to that scenario.

This training begins to approach Principle.

With Principle and Form(2) firmly established, then we can talk about Application(2).

Application(1) is not a prescribed series of moves for combat, it's something that trains the intention to move the body to express energy in certain ways. Up, down, twisting, circling, oblique, in two opposing lines, in two perpendicular planes, whatever. Application(2) may look nothing at all like Application(1), and in my experience I've had to think about where in the form a particular expression of energy came from. In combat, it's mind no-mind, free flowing intention and movement.

So, the complete sequence.

Form(2)->Form(1)->Application(1)->Principle->Application(2)
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby Trick on Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:12 pm

johnwang wrote:Sometime people try to find application from the forms (such as hip throw in Taiji form). IMO, this is not the right approach.

All MA systems have a finite set of "principles" that the system is built on. You should not find application from forms. You should find application from principle.

principle -> application

For example, a foot sweep principle can create more than 30 different kind of different foot sweep application. Since it's impossible to record all the foot sweep application into your forms, if you try to create application from forms, you will only create a small subset of your foot sweep principle.

What's your opinion on this?

That's why I said in the other tread that hip throws can be found in every corner of a Taiji form. Teaching as - this exact move in the form is derfence agains this attack, this might be good practice for the very beginner
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby chenyaolong on Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:24 am

Well, what we need to remember is that form comes from use, not vice versa. People had combat first, and then by trial and error, codified what works best. Over time this developed into form.

To use another analogy might make my point clearer: language was initially a means of communicating ideas. "tiger near river, danger". Something like this. As language got more complex, certain habits developed which were eventually codified into grammar. It's not that we first have the rules of a language, and then work towards communication, rather its the opposite.

So in the same way, we first have fighting, and then from fighting we get form.

Hope that make sense
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby RobP3 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:41 am

johnwang wrote:Sometime people try to find application from the forms (such as hip throw in Taiji form). IMO, this is not the right approach.

All MA systems have a finite set of "principles" that the system is built on. You should not find application from forms. You should find application from principle.

principle -> application

For example, a foot sweep principle can create more than 30 different kind of different foot sweep application. Since it's impossible to record all the foot sweep application into your forms, if you try to create application from forms, you will only create a small subset of your foot sweep principle.

What's your opinion on this?


Gee, if only there was a comprehensive art that took this approach... ;D ;D ;) ;D
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby RobP3 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:43 am

oragami_itto wrote:Without defining terms, the discussion gets murky quick.

Form:
1: A series of choreographed movements
2: The shape of your body (posture)
Application:
1: An idea about a way that a specific posture could work against an opponent
2: Using your art against an opponent
Principle:
1: The idea expressed by Form and Application

So basically, Form(1) is a sequence of Form(2).

Form(2) must be present in the body before you can go any further. What's the point of discussing the principle of swordplay if you don't have a sword? It's just empty talk.

Once Form(2) is present in the body, then Form(1) is possible.



I'd argue that once you have form 2, then form 1 is unnecessary. In fact I think more and more it gets in the way, too much time and resources spent straitjacketing form 2 into form 1.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:26 am

RobP3 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Without defining terms, the discussion gets murky quick.

Form:
1: A series of choreographed movements
2: The shape of your body (posture)
Application:
1: An idea about a way that a specific posture could work against an opponent
2: Using your art against an opponent
Principle:
1: The idea expressed by Form and Application

So basically, Form(1) is a sequence of Form(2).

Form(2) must be present in the body before you can go any further. What's the point of discussing the principle of swordplay if you don't have a sword? It's just empty talk.

Once Form(2) is present in the body, then Form(1) is possible.



I'd argue that once you have form 2, then form 1 is unnecessary. In fact I think more and more it gets in the way, too much time and resources spent straitjacketing form 2 into form 1.


Definitely disagree. The taijiquan solo form (1) is an integral part of cultivating form (2) beyond the basics.

The intricacies of your art may differ but the taijiquan form is not simple external conditioning like a pushup. I believe they're are qualities developed which can only be developed through it.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby RobP3 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:34 am

oragami_itto wrote:
RobP3 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:Without defining terms, the discussion gets murky quick.

Form:
1: A series of choreographed movements
2: The shape of your body (posture)
Application:
1: An idea about a way that a specific posture could work against an opponent
2: Using your art against an opponent
Principle:
1: The idea expressed by Form and Application

So basically, Form(1) is a sequence of Form(2).

Form(2) must be present in the body before you can go any further. What's the point of discussing the principle of swordplay if you don't have a sword? It's just empty talk.

Once Form(2) is present in the body, then Form(1) is possible.



I'd argue that once you have form 2, then form 1 is unnecessary. In fact I think more and more it gets in the way, too much time and resources spent straitjacketing form 2 into form 1.


Definitely disagree. The taijiquan solo form (1) is an integral part of cultivating form (2) beyond the basics.

The intricacies of your art may differ but the taijiquan form is not simple external conditioning like a pushup. I believe they're are qualities developed which can only be developed through it.


I've experience with both approaches. A push up can be as internal as you make it and I found nothing in the TCC form that can't be achieved without it,YMMV.
Even with the set form approach, I believe "old days" training was muchjmore about working individual postures / energies than the whole form. I think that set form became a way of spreading and selling the art
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby marvin8 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:45 am

johnwang wrote:Sometime people try to find application from the forms (such as hip throw in Taiji form). IMO, this is not the right approach.

All MA systems have a finite set of "principles" that the system is built on. You should not find application from forms. You should find application from principle.

principle -> application

For example, a foot sweep principle can create more than 30 different kind of different foot sweep application. Since it's impossible to record all the foot sweep application into your forms, if you try to create application from forms, you will only create a small subset of your foot sweep principle.

What's your opinion on this?

Good forms contain principles and strategies, not only techniques. You should understand the principles and strategies of the form.

You "create applications from" the principles within the form.
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby windwalker on Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:56 am

johnwang wrote:What's your opinion on this?



The closer what ever style is to actually being used, the more basic
the central ideas are and trained.

"The fundamental fighting theory was known as the “eight character true essence”. The “eight character true essence” can be roughly translated as “strike the place that has a pulse, never a place that has no pulse, and stretch the arms out while keeping the body away.

I can hit you, but you can not hit me...simple, once trained works really well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD6TsmOazcY
Last edited by windwalker on Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Principle -> Application

Postby marvin8 on Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:58 am

marvin8 wrote:Good forms contain principles and strategies, not only techniques. You should understand the principles and strategies of the form.

You "create applications from" the principles within the form.

To elaborate . . .

Excerpts from Principles vs Techniques, http://www.kwokwingchun.com/training-ti ... echniques/:
Dan Knight added on 3 Aug 2012 wrote:Wing Chun is an art in which principles are more important than specific techniques. This does not mean that Wing Chun does not have techniques. It means that at the root of all techniques are underlying principles and thus all techniques can be adjusted in accordance to those principles. By studying an art which is based on principles instead of techniques, the practitioner is able to take his or her art and make it their own. If the principles are understood, the practitioner can take that art into any situation or scenario and learn to apply it. The student must learn to understand the principles as they apply to their individual body type, mindset and physical attributes, not just learn choreographed forms or memorized techniques and drills the same way as everyone else in the class or even the same way that the teacher executes them.

If you believe everything I say you will never be a good fighter.
— Ip Man

The above quote from Ip Man seems to contrast the idea of a system which is built upon forms (pre-determined sets of techniques that have to be learned). However forms not only give the practitioner sets of techniques they also show principles. For instance how to generate power by turning, simultaneous attack and defense. Therefore before the practitioner can develop their own style they need something to build upon. This is why, all students are taught pretty much the same concepts, theories, and exercises. This is necessary in order to gain a foundation. Some people are happy just following others in their training and this is will provide them with a reasonable amount of skill, but it is not Wing Chun.

Understand the principles for your training.
– Wing Chun kuen Kuit

For instance a Biu Sau is a great technique to stop a straight punch. But if you take it solely as a technique it is flawed. A technique does not take into account who is attacking you or even who you are, it is just a movement. Therefore if someone who is considerably shorter than you throws a straight punch and you try to use a Biu Sau, your opponents punch will likely be delivered under you technique, because they are punching up and a Biu Sau works by receiving and deflecting force that is the same height or higher than it is. In this example the Biu Sau as a technique fails. This is because the principles that govern the Biu Sau are not being applied to the right situation. However in the same example if you performed a low Gan Sau technique you would be applying the principle of deflection which would in this situation work. But the low Gan Sau would not stop a straight punch from someone the same height as yourself so the only thing that will always be true for a defending a straight punch effectively, is the principle of deflection not any one technique. High level Wing Chun should choose a course of action or type of movement based on important principles not techniques. Chi Sau helps a practitioner understand these principles. . . .

Upon achieving the highest level of proficiency, application of techniques will vary depending on the opponent.
— Wing Chun kuen Kuit

Any good fighter will vary his fighting strategy based on his opponent and his environment. The opponent could be large or small, tall or short, male or female, fast or slow. The opponent's strengths and weaknesses vs. your own strength and weaknesses will also come into play. The opponent might be a boxer who is good with his hands, a kicker who is good with his feet, a wrestler who is good at grappling, he or she might be carrying a weapon, etc. Additionally, the environment plays a role; it might be dark, the terrain might be rough, it might be in a confined area with limited space to move, etc. So how does one handle all these different situations? Many people try to study lots of different martial arts in order to cover as many scenarios as possible I.e. jujitsu for ground fighting, Ninjitsu for weapons defense, boxing to develop punching power, Mui Boran/Mui Thai to develop kicking power and Wing Chun for close contact fighting. A certain level of all round ability will be achieved by this, but it is only when reaching the high levels of any given martial arts that most people attain good understanding of the principles that are important to them. Too many people try to flood their memory with every possible technique to cover all possible situations and this leads to a very technique based style of learning which will cause problems if the practitioner finds themselves in a situation they haven't trained, or one they can't remember the right technique based solution for, I.e. what do I do if someone bigger than me attacks me when Im sitting down in the bar? Well they will depend where they are in relation to you and there is no real way to train all possible situations, instead it is better and more time effective to train the principles that will protect you where ever you are.

It seems that individuals jump from one art to the next trying to complete their martial arts training because very few martial arts teachers are teaching complete martial arts methods based on principles which can be applied to any situation and/or students are not pursuing these arts in great depth. Any martial art which has been around for a hundred years or more is bound to be a good, complete martial art system, otherwise it would not have lasted. However, today too many people do not fully understand the art they practice or get bored with it before they reach a depth of understanding. Studying choreographed forms and applications and mimicking these memorized routines to get belt ranks falls far short of studying a complete method and understanding how its principles are applied under varying circumstances.
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