The almighty founder of your system

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby Subitai on Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:17 am

Bao wrote:
middleway wrote: . Throw Guo Yun Shen or Yang Lu Chan in the ring with a prime time Crocop ... I honestly dont believe they would stand a chance..


Why do everyone believe that a modern rule-set is the ultimate proof of fighting skills? :-\

You need to put them outside of the ring without any kind of rule-set. That would be much more interestinfg and much more fair. ;)


Nah regardless of the rules....middleway is talking practical. Spot on. It may sting to admit it but that's how it would play out 9 out of 10 times.

Ever notice how physically larger in size most of the so called famous fighting masters were? Big surprise, size makes a difference.
To the other legendary masters (of normal size) that took on incredible odds and won...usually they took on nobody's who sucked. Even I could defeat 5 Farmers with pitch forks if I can hit and run Jackie Chan style and even the odds.
100 yrs. later it becomes I took on 5 masters.
I suspect that the rumor mill embellished the stories over time for allot of famous teachers.

I do believe however there are / were some true freaks of nature that were actually pretty good....but I think they were very rare. Not even, one for every system.
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby everything on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:31 am

you throw anyone in the ring against crocop at his prime and they don't stand a chance. (except fedor, of which the same could be said)
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby Ron Panunto on Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:20 pm

Subitai wrote:Ever notice how physically larger in size most of the so called famous fighting masters were?.


There were lots of skinny little masters. Look at Yang Luchan and Ueshiba and the old Chinese iron palm master that broke a stack of bricks 3 ft. high. That's why these arts were developed - they're an equalizer.
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby Bao on Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:30 pm

Subitai wrote: Ever notice how physically larger in size most of the so called famous fighting masters were? Big surprise, size makes a difference. .


Let Yang Luchan and your MMA pro of choice fight with sharp spears and tell me if size matters. Yang Luchan practiced with sharp weapons.
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:34 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:
Subitai wrote:Ever notice how physically larger in size most of the so called famous fighting masters were?.


There were lots of skinny little masters. Look at Yang Luchan and Ueshiba and the old Chinese iron palm master that broke a stack of bricks 3 ft. high. That's why these arts were developed - they're an equalizer.


Image

"
When Ku got into the ring with the horse, he got kicked several times, but he received no injuries at all, due to his internal iron body skill (gold bell, i.e. iron shirt). Ku then managed to slap the horse with one palm slap. The horse gave out a loud whinny and dropped dead with blood coming out of the eyes, ears, nose, and mouth and died instantly. An autopsy was performed and they found out that the horse had died of internal massive bleeding, due to ruptured blood vessels and organs, yet there was no sign or external mark of any injury on the outside of the horse’s body."

Other methods were also developed to give one an edge although like any method one still had to have a
way to use it ie entering, bridging ect https://journeytoemptiness.com/2017/06/09/burning-palm/

what is often missing with some of what are called higher level skill sets is the lower level skill sets that allow them to be used.
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby dspyrido on Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:56 pm

Subitai wrote:
Bao wrote:You need to put them outside of the ring without any kind of rule-set. That would be much more interestinfg and much more fair. ;)


Nah regardless of the rules....middleway is talking practical. Spot on. It may sting to admit it but that's how it would play out 9 out of 10 times.


I think the rules would make a big difference in the opposite way. Examples - if it's about the 1st guy to touch a one knee to the floor then suddenly all the ground is removed. If it includes weight categories I doubt crocop or fedor will have an old time competitor. If weapons are included then things change again. What if it's just stationary push hands??

If it's really open - no rules, no weight categories, no judge then it might just be who can get the best out of the environment they are in and who is the craftiest. A somber thought is the winner is not the guy with the cardio, 1 on 1 skills, strength ... but the guy who "cheats".

That said in a sanctioned mma fight with mighty mouse or dillashaw I'm with the 9 out of 10 modern fighter in their element.
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby origami_itto on Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:59 pm

Fair fights are for suckers
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby Subitai on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:17 pm

windwalker wrote:
Ron Panunto wrote:
Subitai wrote:Ever notice how physically larger in size most of the so called famous fighting masters were?.


There were lots of skinny little masters. Look at Yang Luchan and Ueshiba and the old Chinese iron palm master that broke a stack of bricks 3 ft. high. That's why these arts were developed - they're an equalizer.


Image

"
When Ku got into the ring with the horse, he got kicked several times, but he received no injuries at all, due to his internal iron body skill (gold bell, i.e. iron shirt). Ku then managed to slap the horse with one palm slap. The horse gave out a loud whinny and dropped dead with blood coming out of the eyes, ears, nose, and mouth and died instantly. An autopsy was performed and they found out that the horse had died of internal massive bleeding, due to ruptured blood vessels and organs, yet there was no sign or external mark of any injury on the outside of the horse’s body."

Other methods were also developed to give one an edge although like any method one still had to have a
way to use it ie entering, bridging ect https://journeytoemptiness.com/2017/06/09/burning-palm/

what is often missing with some of what are called higher level skill sets is the lower level skill sets that allow them to be used.



Gu Ru Zhang is Directly in my lineage through my Taiji and Bak Sil Lum...I know all about him. I would be the 1st to be biased towards him.

1st) In my post, I not only mentioned the BIG fighters but I also spoke about "NORMAL" sized as well as "Freaks of Nature".
I would hope that the persons nit picking my statements ...should read a little more carefully before posting.

2nd) ;) Myself being biased towards my own Great, great Grand teacher = I kinda believe that he was one of those rare Freaks of nature...i.e. he was 1 in a 1,000,000. ;) ;)

Anyway, I could easily sit here and post about all of GRZ accomplishments but I wasn't there, he's my ancestor and even I don't live off "Empty Locker" stories and the fact is...the rumor mill and handing down stories a bit embellished is STILL a problem for everyone and anyone of any style.

** So If I wanted to play devils advocate against my own lineage I could easily say that I've been to China and seen the quality of their bricks in general. Just walking around Beijing and other different towns and villages looking at how the buildings are crumbling from the poor quality of materials. Picking up a brick and seeing for myself their quality.
This is the modern day...imagine how bad the quality could have been about 100yrs ago (which is roughly when that photo was taken). With my current gong skills I could Iron Palm break a couple cheap China made poorly made bricks right now.

I've also tried a MODERN 1" think Concrete Paver brick... believe me it's a Hell of allot harder to break. Especially even 2 or more of them without spacers combined together.

Or I could just say...I believe all the old stories about all the famous teachers of the past and be completely oblivious to the possibility of the rumor mill.

What I do believe is that Martial Arts evolves and improves.
- Just as we humans can run better than ancient man (without drugs or modern shoes)...our understanding of human performance has vastly improved.

- Martial arts is on par with Mathematics IMO... You cannot compare Math from ancient times to our current level of understanding.
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby middleway on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:32 pm

Bao i didn't mention there being a ruleset. I also didn't say only modern sport fighters... I simply said modern fighters. Crocop is just one example.

With no rules I think it would play out exactely the same.

This is of course just my personal opinion, and I fully understand that people will want to protect the reputation of their favourite founders.

As for sharp spears. We are talking about two people fighting. If it's a bring your favourite weapon kind of fight ylc brings spears ... cop brings his weapon of choice ... a 9mm. Let's no head down a silly road.

Interesting that people are ignoring point 3 however. It's the most important one... because of course no long dead master will be fighting anyone anytime soon.

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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:24 pm

Subitai wrote:
1st) In my post, I not only mentioned the BIG fighters but I also spoke about "NORMAL" sized as well as "Freaks of Nature".
I would hope that the persons nit picking my statements ...should read a little more carefully before posting. .


Actually I agree with you.
You mentioned him, just thought some might want to read a little about him.

IMO many of the past founders were the MMA guys of their day in that they went out and proved or disproved what they did or
what others said they could do.

Having said this, there are real past masters in any activity that not many can hope or achieve the same level
some do but most don't.

As to the OP point I agree in that IME many tend to rely on the past accomplishments of others
failing to see the limitations or advancements in thought and usage in todays time unable to free themselves
they talk about the past with no current examples even their experience..

My last taiji teacher once told me when I asked about the differences between taiji styles "once you reach a certain level of understanding you can call
what you do what ever you want." there is only one taiji...https://journeytoemptiness.com/2014/12/ ... ji-styles/
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:24 am

Ron Panunto wrote:
Subitai wrote:Ever notice how physically larger in size most of the so called famous fighting masters were?.


There were lots of skinny little masters. Look at Yang Luchan and Ueshiba and the old Chinese iron palm master that broke a stack of bricks 3 ft. high. That's why these arts were developed - they're an equalizer.

I think those guys actually was quite well trained(physically stronger) than the everage person. I have read that Ueshiba was quite a strong guy in his younger days. Physically strong, some hand to hand (and weapon)combat skill and a strong fighting spirit, they could easily handle some street brawlers. As for the iron palmed bricks, I think the pic does not show the whole picture, and as previous poster mentioned, Chinese bricks are quite brittle.
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby everything on Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:44 pm

Subitai wrote:
What I do believe is that Martial Arts evolves and improves.
- Just as we humans can run better than ancient man (without drugs or modern shoes)...our understanding of human performance has vastly improved.

- Martial arts is on par with Mathematics IMO... You cannot compare Math from ancient times to our current level of understanding.


running records are broken over time, understandable by casual observers watching the news on the olympics or marathons. I don't know if we have data on ancient race competitions.

with math, how do we know? more proofs proved? is there better math theory or better computing tools? I don't know.
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby Ian C. Kuzushi on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:24 pm

Ron Panunto wrote:
There were lots of skinny little masters. Look at Yang Luchan and Ueshiba and the old Chinese iron palm master that broke a stack of bricks 3 ft. high. That's why these arts were developed - they're an equalizer.


Ueshiba was known for his tremendous strength and wrestling boulders and tree rounds. He was quite the little tank. I can't speak to Yang, but isn't there a story of him flinging a bunch of heavy bales up onto a roof with a spear? The well-known pic of the brick smasher shows a fellow of unusual muscular development for that day.

I do agree that the masters of old often trained a lot more than hobbyists today. But, the earlier statements about them being healthier or stronger falls apart if we start looking at professional athletes today. People can run faster and jump higher, move more weights and live longer.

I think there is value in the tall tales. They can interest people in the arts and get them motivated. Generally, as people learn more, they should put this aside and focus on the tangible, historical, and achievable. Besides, there are still many stories that are true, even if they don't involve jumping two stories high or other such nonsense.
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:34 pm

everything wrote:
Subitai wrote:
What I do believe is that Martial Arts evolves and improves.
- Just as we humans can run better than ancient man (without drugs or modern shoes)...our understanding of human performance has vastly improved.

- Martial arts is on par with Mathematics IMO... You cannot compare Math from ancient times to our current level of understanding.


running records are broken over time, understandable by casual observers watching the news on the olympics or marathons. I don't know if we have data on ancient race competitions.

with math, how do we know? more proofs proved? is there better math theory or better computing tools? I don't know.

If look at depictions/sculptures of athletes in "ancient" times(now I actually don't know if those sculptures are from ancient times, maybe they are more " recent" works?) they seem as well trained as today's athletes
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Re: The almighty founder of your system

Postby middleway on Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:33 am

I actually think that pre-industrialisation and farming, hunter gatherers were extremly powerful and capable. FAR more capable than the average human today. There is evidence to suggest that they could run faster on average than all but the most elite runners today.

For instance.

http://metro.co.uk/2009/10/19/ancient-man-faster-than-usain-bolt-and-stronger-than-schwarzenegger-3421373/

However, these are Ancient man, where they would need to hunt animals with minimal tools. Not those from the timeframe that many lineage founders lived. Secondly, my reasoning for viewing todays fighters as superior is not only based on physicality.

I certainly agree that many of the masters we hear of were 'outliers' and this speaks to why their systems often degraded after thier death, or why only one other person really got the good stuff when they died, it was more about that individuals genetics than the systems proficiency at producing fighters.

I have come to view the martial arts as a constant refinement down from a vaste array of specialisations. Unarmed fighting skill is always coloured by the timeframe it exists in. In the modern world where there are MMA gyms of every corner, Youtube teaching the world how to punch or fight, weight training facilities and a steroid epidemic you are more likely to meet a skilled fighter who is twice the size of the average peasant in ancient China than ever before.

I know people are anti MMA here, but the early modern 'no holds barred' events like the UFC really did show something to the world. It was an 'everyone come and try' moment, like the hailed 1928 tournement in China, all styles welcome. And what it showed was that many of the, once effective, specialisations were not applicable in a 1 on 1 encounter in the modern world. In a very short timeframe from that moment, the search for the most effective way to dissable someone has been going full bore and has been backed by the best science at fighters disposal. This has led to fighters with incredibale physical conditioning matched with incredible fighting skill. Now whenever even a mediocre MMA fighter beats the crap out of a TMA with NO RULES people still hold onto the idea that MMA is 'Just a sport'. There is more to that story.

But outside MMA, there is an emergant culture of RBSD and although that world is also saturated with prats teaching nonsense, there is also some extremely good stuff in that world. Then add in pressure tested weaponry work and you are living in a world with some of the most deadly fighters in history.

In essence i think today we have better martial artists for todays world. Could todays elite fight in a field against guys with spears on horseback? No. But could they handle almost any old time lineage master in a 1 on 1 encounter ... in my opinion absolutely.

Similarly i think if you put someone like Aleksandr Karelin in an ancient Olympian wrestling match he would ragdoll them ... although might not like them grabbing his junk.

To re-itterate, I dont actually think it makes any difference. I would not choose to study a traditional Chinese Martial art becasue it is the best platform to produce fighters. I would study it for every other great reason of which there are plenty.

cheers
Chris.
Last edited by middleway on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:00 am, edited 4 times in total.
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