Grab vs No Grab

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Grab vs No Grab

Postby Subitai on Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:57 pm

It's about time for my annual gripe of people not wanting to grab.

Martial arts of course has striking and grabbing for some sort of wrestling OR control OR to throw...blah blah blah.

For the life of me I cannot figure why there are people that insist on saying that Practicing without Grabbing or limiting the rules of Grabbing is a good thing.

We as humans have opposing thumbs...shocker we reach out and grab our opponents. We don't have to do it all the time, for example when striking. But the possibility is always there. More importantly if your training does incorporate the use of grabs an how to defend VS them, I believe you're at a disadvantage.

Unless the rare occurrence of a quick knockout happens, most people will experience some sort of Grapple sooner or later. Look at any street fight footage and other than a clean knockout...somebody is getting grabbed somewhere.

Sorry that this video link needs Facebook...here as an example is a video I've been seeing viewed around on FB:

https://www.facebook.com/stuart.verity. ... 8237724591

On various pages you see comments about the grabbing going on. Bringing this back to Tai Chi what's messed up is, in the USA there's no format similar to what's going on in this video AND it's still called Push Hands. At Least to my knowledge.
Subitai
Anjing
 
Posts: 221
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:25 pm
Location: Southeastern, CT USA

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby oragami_itto on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:15 pm

From a perspective of absolute purity, at a low level if you grab you're giving them a way to manipulate you through the grab. At a high level you should be able to seize without it. So some people never do pursue it.
But like the comments say, it's right there in cai so stfu
Last edited by oragami_itto on Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby dspyrido on Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:57 pm

Subitai wrote:https://www.facebook.com/stuart.verity.7/posts/10215268237724591


Is that tai chi or wrestling? Ok only kidding I don't care how people brand it but it's a far more interesting way to be play than 2 people thinking they can edge someone slightly out of a stance. Don't get me wrong - it's a skill but it's like a Greco Roman tie breaker rule were 2 people grip until one let's go... it misses the big picture.

Anyway many times I've heard from touch sensitive types "don't grab". I've come to the conclusion it is better to know when to grab and when to not... and to train awareness, skill and strength in both. Plus also where does touch vs grab fit in the overall structure.

Even the other day I was thinking gorilla grip vs opposable thumb has interesting different uses and sensitivity levels.
User avatar
dspyrido
Wuji
 
Posts: 2026
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:03 am

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby johnwang on Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:05 pm

The reason that you may want to grab is to temporarily guide your opponent's arm away from your entering path. Most of the grab only last for 1/4 - 1/2 second.



get the wrist -> get the arm -> get the head (or shoulder)

I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8566
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:15 pm

I'm pretty sure that the reason they implemented the no-grabbing rule is because they didn't want a Taiji PH competition to look like a low-level, external, and uncivilized Greco-Roman wrestling match. ;) ;D
C.J.W.
Wuji
 
Posts: 1669
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:02 am

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:06 pm

johnwang wrote:The reason that you may want to grab is to temporarily guide your opponent's arm away from your entering path. Most of the grab only last for 1/4 - 1/2 second.





When I used to practice with his group, coming from a taiji background my tendency was to follow the force when
we did practice grabbing drills. This would have the tendency of unbalancing my partner they would fall out.

Teacher Lai, seeing this said no thats not the way we do it, he demoed on me a couple of times his touch was very light
and actually followed the force. ;) The students on the other hand did really grab trying to "control" or "direct" the force.

In taiji, most people are told not to grab with a closed hand one should ask why? It has to do with understanding what real sticking is.

I would say if one is joined with the other there is no point in grabbing,, why would one grab themselves :P ,

In joining the control has already happened just the other can not feel it,,,
yet :P when they understand its to late....

The ph hands practices that many do is very misguided in this aspect...and IMO leads to many bad habits and false assumptions.
Of course if one only interacts with others in the ph context maybe they find it useful, who can say?
Last edited by windwalker on Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6793
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby windwalker on Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:08 pm

C.J.W. wrote:I'm pretty sure that the reason they implemented the no-grabbing rule is because they didn't want a Taiji PH competition to look like a low-level, external, and uncivilized Greco-Roman wrestling match. ;) ;D


I would say it was because they wanted to use this as teaching tool hoping that it would help to develop
skill sets at the end, instead of being the end unto itself.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 6793
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby willie on Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:31 pm

I'm still working on a way to increase my gripping power times 10. Wish I had bigger hands and crush them too atomic particles. Just kidding of course . Gripping and grabbing A-Plus.
Last edited by willie on Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
willie

 

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:49 am

Once my brother( who was a competitive power lifter) was on his way home from a late bar night, he was attacked and pepper sprayed in the eyes. He instantly got a good grip over one of the attackers face and just squished while with the other hand fending off a couple of kicks from the other guy who soon choose to run away, the other guy had stoped doing anything, my brother let go and went home to find his grabbing hand was all smeared in blood.
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1348
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:15 am

When you use grabbing to bin your opponent's arms against his body and he can't even move, the fight is over. You don't need to anything else. A pair of monster grips can be very useful.
Last edited by johnwang on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8566
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:28 am

What if he kicks you in the groin?
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:56 am

oragami_itto wrote:What if he kicks you in the groin?

If your leading leg jam into your opponent's leading leg, he can't kick you. Otherwise, you pull his arm downward and give him a "抖(Dou) – shaking".

Last edited by johnwang on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8566
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby oragami_itto on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:59 am

The knee is still dangerous. :D
Also have to look out for a head butt! :D
"This principle is very obvious and requires no further elaboration."
-Yang Cheng Fu
User avatar
oragami_itto
Wuji
 
Posts: 1083
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:11 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby johnwang on Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:14 am

oragami_itto wrote:The knee is still dangerous. :D
Also have to look out for a head butt! :D

Kick, knee, and head butt are all 2 ways street. You can do that to your opponent. Your opponent can do that to you too. If you are good in

- "single leg", you will be happy when you see your opponent's leg coming to you.
- "head lock", you will be happy when you see your opponent's head coming to you.

It depends on whether you are more familiar with a certain situation than your opponent or the other way around.
I'm still allergy to "push".
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 8566
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Grab vs No Grab

Postby Trick on Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:18 pm

oragami_itto wrote:What if he kicks you in the groin?

Groin protective stance
Trick
Wuji
 
Posts: 1348
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2016 1:30 am

Next

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: rojcewiczj and 13 guests