TCMA techniques in the modern era

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Subitai on Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:00 pm

Subitai wrote:
Most TMA fail at being able to create a stick point or bridge with a non compliant opponent because of that retraction....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m544at1wa00

Below is a Short GIF of Fedor basically doing the same thing.
http://giant.gfycat.com/TameMediumGrackle.gif

I have to stress though...this one simple example is NOT the only way that a TCMA could get an unwilling opponent to leave his arms out long enough to bridge with. There's allot of good concepts that I teach to create these opportunities.


Marvin8 wrote:
That video is showing trapping the opponent's block or punch before he retracts his arm. Fedor is not "basically doing the same thing." Fedor pulls (traps) the leading guard hand or feints to draw the hands forward then traps.

There is a timing difference between trying to trap a punch before it is "retracted" and pulling a leading arm guard. The latter results in trapping the arm for a longer period of time; starting the trap before the arm is extended. Also, the timing may be easier.


Issue I was pointing out was "Stopping the RETRACTION", it was not so much about the subtle differences in Timing.

In boxing a hand held out too far is a NO NO (it leaves your chin open)...Being able to pull it back to Chin position is fundamental to defense.
= Regardless if a boxer leaves his left OUT TOO FAR or it's TRAPPED out in some way... If he cannot retract it effectively, he's leaving himself an opening to be hit.

Besides, are you saying that just because in my demo video I did that technique a certain way....You perceive that I couldn't possibly do it the same way as FEDOR????

Of course I could, the issue is with preventing retraction, which is the crux of my point. So in my opinion, yeah he is basically doing the same thing.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:22 pm

Subitai wrote:
Subitai wrote:
Most TMA fail at being able to create a stick point or bridge with a non compliant opponent because of that retraction....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m544at1wa00

Below is a Short GIF of Fedor basically doing the same thing.
http://giant.gfycat.com/TameMediumGrackle.gif

I have to stress though...this one simple example is NOT the only way that a TCMA could get an unwilling opponent to leave his arms out long enough to bridge with. There's allot of good concepts that I teach to create these opportunities.


Marvin8 wrote:
That video is showing trapping the opponent's block or punch before he retracts his arm. Fedor is not "basically doing the same thing." Fedor pulls (traps) the leading guard hand or feints to draw the hands forward then traps.

There is a timing difference between trying to trap a punch before it is "retracted" and pulling a leading arm guard. The latter results in trapping the arm for a longer period of time; starting the trap before the arm is extended. Also, the timing may be easier.


Issue I was pointing out was "Stopping the RETRACTION", it was not so much about the subtle differences in Timing.

In boxing a hand held out too far is a NO NO (it leaves your chin open)...Being able to pull it back to Chin position is fundamental to defense.
= Regardless if a boxer leaves his left OUT TOO FAR or it's TRAPPED out in some way... If he cannot retract it effectively, he's leaving himself an opening to be hit.

I have not seen anyone (e.g., Fedor, MMA fighter, etc.) "deny" an opponent the "ability to RETRACT his punch," using bridging/trapping which is one of the points of the OP:
C.J.W. wrote:Take empty-hand fighting for example, TCMA places great emphasis on bridging, or creating arm-contact, as a starting point for most fighting applications. And once contact is made, a TCMA fighter will usually use some sort of style-specific hand-method (shou-fa手法) to execute a technique, or seek to create additional contact points before doing so.

While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters. IMO, it is because that successful bridging relies on one of two things: committed attacks from the opponent or "layman responses" to incoming attacks. That's why so many TCMAists have a hard time against modern fighters who usually retract their limbs quickly after each strike, and prefer to move around with agile footwork and dodge incoming attacks as opposed to keeping the upper body rigid and blocking.


Subitai wrote:Besides, are you saying that just because in my demo video I did that technique a certain way....You perceive that I couldn't possibly do it the same way as FEDOR????

Of course I could, the issue is with preventing retraction, which is the crux of my point. So in my opinion, yeah he is basically doing the same thing.

I believe most people (including you) could do what Fedor is doing (trap the guard arm) with the correct instruction and practice. "The timing may be easier." And, it may create more time in controlling the limb.

However, I have not seen a MMA fighter prevent an opponent from retracting their punch. I have seen a fighter slip (yield) a punch, let it go by and counter.
Last edited by marvin8 on Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Trip on Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:51 am

C.J.W. wrote:
Trip wrote:Some might find this interesting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ31539Cg04


Aoki Shinya, a Japanese MMAist known for his joint-locking skills, has broken an opponent's elbow in the ring using a very similar lock.



Yikes!!! There needs to be a warning on this one. That looked like it hurt.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Bao on Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:36 am

”...stop the retraction..”

So people here believe that bridging is about stopping the retraction of punches? And because you don’t see anyone catch a fast jab, TCMA doesn’t work? Wow.

-faint-
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby oragami_itto on Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:04 am

Yeah I'm just enjoying this popcorn
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:14 am

Bao wrote:”...stop the retraction..”

So people here believe that bridging is about stopping the retraction of punches? And because you don’t see anyone catch a fast jab, TCMA doesn’t work? Wow.

-faint-

An example of the OP is TCMA bridging against any punch "is rarely seen in actual fighting." A video of 8-Step PM practice demonstration was given as an example of TCMA bridging. Four TCMA actual fighting videos were shown without any TCMA bridging, only clinching and grappling.

Subitai addressed the topic and gave a clear demonstration of how it might be done. I was only of the opinion that Fedor was trapping a guard hand, rather than stopping the retraction of a punch.
C.J.W. wrote:Take empty-hand fighting for example, TCMA places great emphasis on bridging, or creating arm-contact, as a starting point for most fighting applications. And once contact is made, a TCMA fighter will usually use some sort of style-specific hand-method (shou-fa手法) to execute a technique, or seek to create additional contact points before doing so.

While this game plan may sound great in theory and look great in demos, successful execution of it is rarely seen in actual fighting, especially in the ring against trained modern fighters. IMO, it is because that successful bridging relies on one of two things: committed attacks from the opponent or "layman responses" to incoming attacks. That's why so many TCMAists have a hard time against modern fighters who usually retract their limbs quickly after each strike, and prefer to move around with agile footwork and dodge incoming attacks as opposed to keeping the upper body rigid and blocking.
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:45 am

Alan Orr has a broader definition of TCMA bridging.

Starting @ :38,
Alan Orr on on Apr 23, 2014 wrote:We’ve learned a lot about where the bridge is and where the angle is. So, when I am out here when I choose my strike I can look to see where to strike and find my range to strike. That is called bridging. Because, I am still controlling the bridge. It doesn’t matter whether I have bridge contact. It matters whether I have bridge control. So if he can’t cross the bridge, he can’t cross this area. Because, I can cut that punch. Because, I understand I have control of that.

You don’t have to get this classical idea of getting your hands crossed to get bridge control. That is just basic training. Basic training is to get your stabilizers working. So, you understand the angle of attack, you understand the position. That is what chi sau is teaching you. . . . So, you have all these body movements, body positions that you are going to use. In a fight we are not going to do chi sau, I am just going to punch and kick. He is going to punch and kick. But, who does that better? Who loads their weight? Who has the timing? Who gets the position? That’s all the skills in your wing chun. . . . Bridging isn’t just making bridge contact and then crossing that bridge. From my punching into the area of control and taking control is also bridge contact. My fist hitting his head is also bridge contact. Because where his body goes, I have controlled that movement. I have pushed him into that movement. I know now what my next strike is. That is bridge control. It is not just the basic training. There are lots of layers to it, lots of levels to it.

Wing Chun Questions 18 Bridging Skills by Alan Orr

Alan Orr Wing Chun Academy
Published on Apr 23, 2014

In this clip Alan explains the different basic types of bridging in Wing Chun. From contact bridging to non contact bridging control:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJsOf4p96Lk
Last edited by marvin8 on Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Trick on Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:03 pm

Bridging? As I have speculated before, duels or arrange fist fights in olden China maybe had that starting point as seen in gongfu movies, contestants first reach out and make contact with one of their hands/wrists, then upon feel the fight can begin?? Yes it's in the movies, but does it have any base from reality?....Also if one speculate that many Chinese martial arts are strictly designed for self defence in the sense that one is just a regular guy/"an easy target" for someone to rob or do harm to, an attacker usually feels safe to come up close to do his "business"......if I have understood the concept of bridging, I think it could come in play here?
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Subitai on Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:46 pm

Bao wrote:”...stop the retraction..”

So people here believe that bridging is about stopping the retraction of punches? And because you don’t see anyone catch a fast jab, TCMA doesn’t work? Wow.

-faint-


Well I can't speak for C.J.W. or other people but I don't think what you just said above is what people are referring to exactly. For sure that's NOT what I meant at all.

What I said was:
"Not everyone likes to bridge and stick with eachother...which is at the very HEART of why allot of Traditional Kung Fu fails vs a more MMA pursuit which usually strikes more WESTERN in nature. I.e. they punch and retract their arm (in order to hit again) very quickly and efficiently.
* You can see when a TMA guy...who is used to dealing with opponents who like to ALSO bridge and stick out there arms >>>>>>> all of the sudden he faces someone who will NOT play his game. This is why you see allot of INEXPERIENCED TMA holding their arms out (reaching out) and not effectively covering themselves vs. a good striker. They are at a loss because they have not learned to deal with it.

Most TMA fail at being able to create a stick point or bridge with a non compliant opponent because of that retraction....

Hence, initially the most obvious way that people would "...drag a boxer out of his comfort zone by using strategies and techniques that are not found in boxing." would be to grapple and take him down... duh!

Aside from that aspect of taking a boxer off his feet (which is a proven method)...if you want to fight with him standing up, you have to STOP HIS ABILITY TO PUNCH. One way is to intercept, catch and / or deny his ability to RETRACT his punch. This can be wrapping him up or getting some sort of hand control... at the very least, tying him up some how.


Notice that I said:
1) for punching, "MMA strikes are usually more Western in nature", (hence Boxing). So if you consider a boxers basic tools they are:
- Jab
- Cross and
- Hook

You don't leave a Jab out...it should retract
You don't leave a Cross out once fired...again it should retract
same with a hook or most other punches.

2) Then I said, "Most TMA fail at being able to create a stick point or bridge with a non compliant opponent because of that retraction...."

Ergo...

3) In the underlined section above I give just "One way...." which was to intercept (Jeet)....or deny his ability to RETRACT his punch.
- This topic of retraction was my attempt at giving some possible answers. Is that all of them? NO of course not.

* I come from a Hung Gar ( which uses bridging ) and Taiji back ground. Both styles rely on creating a stick point OR usually some sort of connection for a bridge.

** I should note that "Stick Point" and where the "Power Point" is are not the same) For example, in HG if you grab my wrist using Jai Kiu i.e. Grab controlling type bridge. The stick point is definitely at the place at which you are grabbing me. But, how or where I apply my power, be it hard or soft is not necessarily in the same place, i.e. the same wrist....it could be elsewhere.

While I respect Alan's opinion...he is Wing Chun and he doesn't define my interpretation of bridging. IMO, NO contact No fight...and I don't believe in "controlling the Bridging" without Contact. To me it's just positioning or what others call "Ghost bridging" (I.e. No touch Bridging). If we're not touching, (even in the slightest way) then we both still have equal and fair chance.

What I saw him doing was just positioning right up until contact was made. But still, the way we learned was there is no bridge technically until contact is made. In taiji, same thing...from the moment I touch you or you touch me (obtain a stick-point of some sort), I begin to understand how good you are. But before that, it's all different skills other than bridging.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby windwalker on Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:01 pm

some interesting points related to traditional CMA adapting to the modern era.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMOJQitea10

"you know that, and I know that, but they will never know that"

think about it.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby johnwang on Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:59 am

The "bridging" concept can be as simple as to "reduce your opponent's arm mobility". In order to do so, you can apply principle such as:

蓋(Gai) - Covering hands
攞(Lou)- Pulling hands
搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands
捯(Dao) - Reverse arm-holding
抖(Dou) – Shaking
分(Fen) - Separate hands
掖(Ye) - Hand tucking
引(Yin) - Arm guiding
捧(Peng) - Arm raising
架(Jia) - Elbow Locking
圈(Quan) – Under hook
抄(Chao) - Over hook
...
I'm still allergy to "push".
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:37 am

oragami_itto wrote:
marvin8 wrote:
oragami_itto wrote:I'll just throw into the mix for consideration that self defense situations rarely look like combat sports fights .

Then, what do they look like most of the time?


Messy.

No matter how "messy" a fight is whether in a ring, bar or street, the following "Taiji Quan" skills should and could normally be applied:
Zhang Yun wrote:Using jin in pushing hands and fighting

One common mistake for many people is that they try to use fa jin too directly. They just want to use their jin to beat their opponents as hard as possible. But in real Taiji Quan skill, throwing jin should never be used alone.

The complete process consists of five steps:
1. Ting – listen: feel or detect what the opponent want to do,
2. Hua – melt or dissolve: neutralize the attacking force,
3. Yin – lure: give the opponent false impressions, making him feel like he can get you, and leading him to go
where you want him to go,
4. Nia - hold or control: get the opponent under your control (usually means keep him off-balanced), and
5. Fa - release a throwing force: attack.

Here the first four skills are nei jin skills, while the last one, fa, can be either nei jin or wai jin. In order to be true
Taiji skill, the first four steps must be present.

Here is a bouncer using boxing skills and similar concepts to the above five Taiji steps:

Nick Drossos
Published on Jan 26, 2018

In this fight analysis we are looking at a bouncer going 1 on 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4au_QwZlX3g
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