TCMA techniques in the modern era

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby johnwang on Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:55 pm



What went wrong in this clip? All teachers have taught their students how to borrow force. But students still didn't know how to borrow force. When a teacher demonstrated how to establish a bridge, that teacher intentionally ignored that his partner student didn't know how to borrow his force. It makes no sense to me.

When you use "downward parry" to establish a bridge, you should not expect your opponent's arm will still be there. All my students had experienced that when they used "downward parry" on me, I would always borrow their downward force and hay-maker, spin my arm, and hit on the side of their head. Why? Because my arm was free.

IMO, when you use downward parry, you can either use

- a wrist grip to temporary restrict your opponent's arm mobility.
- an arm wrap. The moment that you can sense your opponent's arm is going to spin, you change your clockwise downward parry into a counter-clockwise arm wrap.

In wrestling, you try to control your opponent's arm. But you will soon find out that when your opponent's arm also rotate with your arm into the same direction, you will then just control into the thin air. It doesn't take long for you to figure out that your clockwise arm move should soon be changed into counter-clockwise arm move. This way when your opponent's arm tries to rotate with your arm, you can meet his arm in the opposite direction.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby windwalker on Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:55 pm

In some styles the block is bypassed, the concept of bridging is meant to damage what ever is
contacted.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X45xfvu9ZLM

we used to call this cutting arm, works well when developed.

Used to interact with those who boxed in my younger yrs. ussing long arm.
Due to the way and how it was used most had a very hard time dealing with it.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:21 pm

Steve Golden, student of Bruce Lee, talks about opponent will move and not let you trap. So, you need to use timing. Set up or get opponent stuck, then trap.

Steve Golden
Published on Apr 12, 2013

Unrehearsed Attacking & Trapping at a seminar.

This was a few years ago. Assisting me is Michael Johnson. Michael had studied JKD for a number of years and we had never met until that morning. He asked to assist me in teaching and we had no preparation. Michael did not know what I was going to do; I did not know what he was going to do. Actually, I didn't know what I was going to do either. This was the result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjRTMjaK6PQ
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby windwalker on Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:41 pm

marvin8 wrote:Steve Golden, student of Bruce Lee, talks about opponent will move and not let you trap. So, you need to use timing. Set up or get opponent stuck, then trap.




What do you feel about his foot work?
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby marvin8 on Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:56 pm

windwalker wrote:
marvin8 wrote:Steve Golden, student of Bruce Lee, talks about opponent will move and not let you trap. So, you need to use timing. Set up or get opponent stuck, then trap.




What do you feel about his foot work?

Not subtle enough. But, it's just a demo. So, he might have other types of footwork. You should listen, try to position and control opponent with footwork, using deception. You might vary the pace, steps, feints, direction, change, switch stances, etc.

The more important point of the demo is the timing. Maybe like the footsweep where the opponent is at a point of no return in the walk cycle, then you trap. It's like most moves. Before exposing yourself, seize opponent.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:27 am

windwalker wrote:In some styles the block is bypassed, the concept of bridging is meant to damage what ever is
contacted.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X45xfvu9ZLM

we used to call this cutting arm, works well when developed.

Used to interact with those who boxed in my younger yrs. ussing long arm.
Due to the way and how it was used most had a very hard time dealing with it.


Very cool. Don't know much about Hop Gar/Tibetan White Crane, but those long-arm techniques do remind me of Choy Lay Fut, which also employs a similar strategy of aggressively destroying the opponent's incoming limbs as opposed to trying to connect.

I suppose that's the reason why CLF has the reputation of being one of the most no-nonsense fighting CMA styles in HK. Even a young man with only a few years of training can make it work well both in the ring and on the street!
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby C.J.W. on Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:39 am

marvin8 wrote:Steve Golden, student of Bruce Lee, talks about opponent will move and not let you trap. So, you need to use timing. Set up or get opponent stuck, then trap.

Steve Golden
Published on Apr 12, 2013

Unrehearsed Attacking & Trapping at a seminar.

This was a few years ago. Assisting me is Michael Johnson. Michael had studied JKD for a number of years and we had never met until that morning. He asked to assist me in teaching and we had no preparation. Michael did not know what I was going to do; I did not know what he was going to do. Actually, I didn't know what I was going to do either. This was the result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjRTMjaK6PQ



Not bad. What he is showing here is definitely a notch above the typical trapping/bridging demo where the student stands still and acts like a crash-test dummy while playing patty-cake with the teacher. ;)

But I'd say that in order to successfully pull off what he is showing, you need to be really light on the feet and, like you mentioned in the previous post, be better at footwork, feinting, distancing, etc than the opponent. Relying on repeated strikes after a trap and hit is complete also isn't my cup of tea. I, as a bagua guy, prefer to move in and trap, sweep, or shoulder-strike for a quick throw of takedown rather than exchanging hits.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:19 pm

windwalker wrote:

we used to call this cutting arm, works well when developed.

I call it "double spears". It's very easy to use it to establish "bridge".

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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby windwalker on Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:15 pm

johnwang wrote:I call it "double spears". It's very easy to use it to establish "bridge".



Nice, reminds me very much of 8-steps mantis.
Image
http://8step.com/mantis/grandmaster.shtml

James showed me something that looked like that a long time ago.
interesting style 8 steps mantis.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby johnwang on Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:17 pm

C.J.W. wrote:TCMA places great emphasis on bridging,

The issue for bridging is it's too easy for your opponent to break that bridging. You will need a fish hook to catch a fish.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby dspyrido on Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:51 pm

1) On the nayser's for TCMA bridging that it has little place in modern fighting:

There's no such thing as modern fighting. Open fighting was around thousands of years ago and was even more free form than what is applied in our "modern" times. Nothing is new - it's just rehash.

2) Regarding bridging:

Bridging exists in many arts forms including Muay Thai (which BTW always makes me wonder why no one calls it TTMA?), boxing, dutch boxing, karate, wrestling (greco & freestyle) or whatever.

3) Regarding TCMA bridging in modern times ie MMA:

Most people just don't get how timing works in MMA. Because of the more open format it messes all single focused methods due to the number of transitions that are possible. Yet few people seem to pay much attention and focus on trying to use it as a means to downplay one martial art over another.

This is it: MMA's rhythm & variability make it next to impossible to do continuous sequences normally found in more specific or self limited arts - examples to consider:

* How often do you see mma fighters throwing more than 1-2 attacks with the rare 3rd? Does that make learning continuous bag work useless? Is learning to flurry in boxing an outdated method?

* Do you see many mma fighters spending much time on the ground? With most fights nowadays being 80%+ standing & some not even touching the ground does that mean bjj has no place in mma?

* Why don't we see more jumping side kicks and spinning roundhouse kicks? In general there might be only a handful thrown in a fight if any. Does that mean that there is no place for high kicking practise in "modern fighting" found in twd or capoiera?

So with the same line of thinking understand that bridging/trapping occurs but can only be used as a transient move to set up the next move. It has a place and being great at bridging/trapping (or just lucky) means that it can be used to devastate.



But if you think you are going to just stand there and trap away in mma then you belong with the other poor souls that tried to box only, wrestle only or bjj only their way in mma. There might have been a time where it might have worked but now it doesn't stand a chance against crossed trained fighters.

As for other so called "TCMA" moves...old bones shows how a low kick to the knees which is a staple move for many TCMA flavours can be used:



It's usually not taught in MT, kickboxing & hardly in the karate's. It's not in boxing or wrestling & forget bjj's view on it. But all that aside - people knew how to kick the legs many many years ago.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Trick on Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:20 pm

dspyrido wrote:There's no such thing as modern fighting. Open fighting was around thousands of years ago and was even more free form than what is applied in our "modern" times.
8-)
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby C.J.W. on Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:05 am

To those who hold the matter-of-fact view that fighting is fighting and has remained unchanged since the earliest of times, I beg to differ.

The way we fight is not only governed by animal instinct, but also influenced by examples of (or models, if you will) fighting that we have been culturally exposed to throughout our lives.

In America, for example, many people have had varying degrees of exposure to western boxing and wrestling since childhood. That's why you are more likely to see people squaring off with their fists held high like boxers and attack with jab cross combos, or attempt to throw the opponent down with a single or double leg takedown in a fight. In Asia, however, those techniques are not as commonly seen in street fights.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby Bao on Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:36 am

dspyrido wrote:So with the same line of thinking understand that bridging/trapping occurs but can only be used as a transient move to set up the next move.


8-)

If bridging is not used to set up a finishing move, there's no point of it.
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Re: TCMA techniques in the modern era

Postby amor on Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:56 am

C.J.W. wrote:To those who hold the matter-of-fact view that fighting is fighting and has remained unchanged since the earliest of times, I beg to differ.

The way we fight is not only governed by animal instinct, but also influenced by examples of (or models, if you will) fighting that we have been culturally exposed to throughout our lives.

In America, for example, many people have had varying degrees of exposure to western boxing and wrestling since childhood. That's why you are more likely to see people squaring off with their fists held high like boxers and attack with jab cross combos, or attempt to throw the opponent down with a single or double leg takedown in a fight. In Asia, however, those techniques are not as commonly seen in street fights.


what do they mostly resort to in Asia, in street fights, then?
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